THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1215, 25 August 1911, Page 7

THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

VERY INTERESTING EVIDENCE. STATEMENT BY MR. H. D. BELL STRAIGHT-OUT OPINIONS. "THE NATIVES WERE CERTAINLY MISLED." The Native Affairs Committee yesterday resumed its inquiry into tho Mokau land transactions. Mr. AY. T. Jennings (chairman) presided. Other members present were: Sir James Carroll, the Hon. A. T. Kgatn, Dr. To Eangihiroa, W. D. S. Macdonald, F. Marnier, 11. J. Grecnslado, T. E. Y. Seddon, B. Divo. W. H. Hemes, and T. Parata. Also present wero: Mr. TV". P. Massey, Leader of the Opposition, Mr. H. D. Bell, K.C., Mr. F. G. DalzielL and several members of Parliament. Tie chairman stated that the committeo had unanimously passed a. resolution that the press be requested, to report the evidence only of theso proceedings. Mr. Massey, on behalf of Mr. Joshna Jones, requested that tho latter might be permitted to attend. The request was granted. The chairman stated that members of Parliament were entitled to attend save at a. secret inquiry. Mr. H. D. Bell was called, and sworn as. a witness. It was. -agreed .that he should make a statement instead of being questioned in the ordinary way. . The Appointment of Advisers.

Mr. Bell opened his staloinent with a reference to the first position of the Native owners of the Mokau Blocks as to legal advisers. When the Native Land Commission was established, the Government invited Mr. Skorrott to act on behalf of tho Natives generally before the Commission. Mr. Skerrett -was asked to adviso the Natives in tho Mokau Block, not by the Natives, but by the Government. In' that sense, and in that sense only, as lie miderstopd, it was Mr. Skertfett the legal adviser of tho Native owners of the , Mokau Blocks.. Before the first meeting of assembled owners which was convened, a number—and a representative number of-tho Native owners came to him (Mr. Boll) and asked Mm to act for them. He did not attend tho first meeting of assembled owners, but Mr. Skerrett did. That meeting rejected by an overwhelming majority the proposal to sell. Mr. Skerrett, on returning to Wellington, informed him (Mr. Bell) that he had been mistaken in supposing that he represented a majority of t'he Natives and that he was satisfied that Mr. Bell did represent a large majority. Mr. Skerrelt also stated that he would take no further steps in tho matter and would leave the Native interest , ;, so far as ho was concerned, to Mr. Bell. This, Mr. Bell stated, he verified by tho instructions that Mr. Skerretf had given in his office. It was clear that, by mutual cunsent of Mr. Skerrett and himself, he (Air. Bell) .represented a large majority of the Nativo owners. .He thought it might be said' that his friend, Mr. Dakiell, represented a minority in thn sense that a minority wore iu favour of tho sale and were in Mr. Ualziell's camp. Mr. Dalziell said jt, might serve the purposes of justice if ho were allowed to say one word.at that stage.- He would like Mr. Bell to bo absolutely snvo about the facts ho was stating before he stated •them. Mr. Bell had said that the resolution.oj sale was-ihrown out by a large majority. As a matter of fact the resolution proposed in respect of Block (1) F —the main-block—was carried by a substantial majority of Native, owners. The only reason that his resolution was not taken before.t'ho Land Board was that all .parties desired that the whole' of the , block should •be dealt-with and tho whole question settled. Mr. Bell said he was obliged to Mr. Dalziell for interrupting. Mr. Dalziell stated that a majority of the Natives (at the meeting) were against the sale of the other blocks.

Mr. Bell said he had spoken only from what'-Mr. Skerrett had reported to him. The latter seemed to have come to a different conclusion as.to what' was the resolution carried at the meeting than Mr. Dalziell. • ' • ■

Mr. Dalziell: There was the actual vote of course.

Mr. Ball: The result was at all events ns I hare said. "So far from a'majority being- in the camp of Mr. Dalziell, they were in the camp opposed to him. The Natives appointed a committee consisting of four or fivo of theiueelves and two ohor rentlemen; Mr. Hardy, surveyor, of: Tβ Kuiti, and. Mr. Te Witi Macdonald, a licensed Native interpreter, who lived at Otaki. Two things ■were discussed and settled.

"They Thought the Price was Ridiculous."

(1) That ,tho Natives were clear that they would.not sell. He used no influence upon that point with them. That was a matter for their judgment. They were absolutely clear that they would not Bell; they did not want to sell, and they thought tho price was ridiculous. They spoke of it as "a Government price." Sir Jas. Carroll: That is, thoss in your camp? Mri Bell: I saw eight or nine who attended in my office. They said it was 'a Government price," ami I took that .to mean that it was an insufficient price.' The second point. Mr. Bel! went on, was as to whether the leases should be attached. That was an independent question, and had no relation whatever with the question as to whether they should sell the freehold. He notified the Natives that if tho leases wcro to bo attacked, they would havo to find a sum of £Wh; Of this, was paid. The subject'matter of the lenses was wholly independent of the question as to whether they should mako this sale. . Tho second 'mooting of assembled owners having be-on advertised, he advi=ed tho Natives who were in his camp—subsequently ho ascertained that they were sfeventy-seven, per cent, of the total number—that his assistance was not necessary to enable them to reject tho resolution (of sale), and that it'was an expensive matter to cart a busy lawyer to To Kuiti and keep him there "for three nr four days. Jlr. Hardy reported from To Kuiti that the Natives wero all of one mind still, and that they who all signing a warrant authorising him (Mr. Boll) to act for thorn. Tho second moeting took place, and he was not there. They had told him on two or three occasions that it was unnecessary he should attend. Tho second meeting ho •understood was equally futile for tho purpos?s_of the intending purchaser. Tho Natives in the meantime had ascertained, according to a report to himself by ths committee, that they could not raise tho money (tho ,£800). In some way the committee led themselves into a belief .that the two questions wero coincident, and that the only choice of tho Natives was whether they.should raiso J:S0O to attack tho leases, or.surrender at discrotioa- to the demands of tho purchaser. With all this ho believed that Mr. Dnlziell and hi? client had nothing to do, but the Natives were misled in some w.iy into believing that they must either raiso ■£800 or surrender —and they surrendered!

"They Were Not Told." "Somebody," continued Mr. Bell, "prevented mo being, informed of tho change of opinion. The leeal adviser of tho Natives never knew that there had been on alteration, with tho result that they never had any advice. They were not told that the question of wh'ethcr they should'litigate the leases had nothing to do with whether they should absent to tho sale. Mr. Skerrctt was in England, or the Government might have supposed.that ■ he was looking after tho Natives. I wish to make it quite clear that tho Natives had iiD independent legal advice of nny sort, or as to whether they should submit to the terms that the Maori Land Board permitted to be submitted to them." Mr. Dalziell: The inference one would draw from tho statement mado by Sir. Bell is that no nrgcetuent was arrival at at that meeting." Mr. Bell: The second meeting?—l have stated that. I knew nothin gat all , about what took place at the second meowing. Mr. Dalziell said Sir. Bell had not have stated that I knew nothing at all statement was a little misleading as made.

Mr. Bell said ho knew perfectly well that ho had been prevented from/knowing that there was any chango of opinion. The Maori Land Board obviously thought, it desirable that tho resululio'n should be passed, becauso 1.h0.v kepi, huldinir meeting after meeting for the purpose of obtaining such a resolution. No doubt they thought that it would be a very good thing to do. It had bpr-n suggested (hat there was a claim of .CSO.OOO against tho assurance fund, and Mr. Skerrett advised the Natives to take .£25,000. It was perfectly plain to him that Air. Skerrett could not have thought s<). If the. claim was in respect of tlio registration of tho leases, then the Natives still had tho freehold. It would be ludicrous to tako .E80,l)00 and add it to tho freehold, and sav: "It is worth He did not believe that Mr. Skerrett ever thought that .825,(100 was a sufficient sum. Ho must have believed (hat there was nothing in the claim. He (Mr. Bell) would venture to say that tho Government Law Officers could nover have advised the Government that there was any foundation for the claim.

"Perfectly Ludicrous." It was perfectly ludicrous to suppose that tho assurance fund was to indemnify pcoplo against their own folly. It was intended to indemnify the person who lost his land by the act of another. Tho K-flole matter was purely chimerical—the question as to whether theso leases wero properly registered or not, whether they wero valid or not—although, no doubt, great respect must be. paid to the opinion of the Native 'Land Commission. The validity of tho lenses was settled by the Mokau Land Act. -Mr. Jennings: Under certain conditions.' Mr. Bell said the Commission had reported that because signatures had not been obtained on-the original leas.es and had been obtained on subsidiary'leases, therefore the leases were invalid. If that claim were valid, it existed just as much that day as it had ever done. The purchase of this freehold did not extinguish the right of the Natives over the registration of documents creating leases. It had been held that tho Natives were right to take .£25,000 for the freehold, because the existence of theso leases seriously depreciated the value of the land, If that were so,, then tho Natives had jnst as big a claim over the .£BO,OOO as they_ ever I had. The purchase by Mr. Lowis did not extinguish the claim of the Natives against tho assurance fund if it ever existed. He had read Mr. Dalziell's letter on the point with great astonishment. The Natives, had suffered a wrong in being induced and persuaded into the idea, that it was a good thing for them to sell this land to get rid of litigation.

"A Most Extraordinary View." The Maori Land Board had taken a tnosf extraordinary view, though it was supposed to exist to protect the Natives. The solo object of tho meeting of assembled owners was to get a conveyance from the Maori Land Board instead of from the Natives. It was perfectly evidont that some of the Natives, at any- . rate, would not sell. Tho only way to get this thing through was to g«t a statutory conveyance signed by the Maori Land Board to convey away tho lands of peop!« who did not want to sell. Tho Maori Land Board did its best to assist by calling meeting after meeting until tho resolution had been passed, giving power into their hands to convey. away the. lands of people whom they' knew did not want to sell. Tho board, did something elso that was still move extraordinary. They directed that of the purchase money should bo paid into the hands of certain individuals to ba applied in the payment of expenses. The board was not only concerned to get the resolution passed. 'It actually provided that tho expenses should bj 10 nor cent.

Sir James Carroll: That wants to bo reduced to tho actual fact of what the boovd did.

Mr. Bell: If I have mis-stated the fact I am very sorry. But the board did som«thing with 10 per cert, of that purchase money, though it had no power to touch a shilliuij of it.

The Position in Brief. ! "The position I take up," said. Jlr.'Bell, "is that the Natives never had independent- legal advice, and that it was • the business of tho Maori Land Board to protect the Natives and seo that they, had legal advice. ... There never was any substance in the claim against tho .Assurance Fund, and if there was a claim, for t £30,500 in respect of damage suffered by the registration of tbeso Teas&s tho freehold must bo worth a quarter of a million." These were the facts which ho ventured to submit, speaking from the point of view of tha Maoris. Ho had nothing to say on the question of the Government's action.

Answering Mr. Maseey, Mr. Bell stated that tho £800 ho had mentioned, would have be/m h-el.l in trust. It would not have been paid to his own firm or any other.

Mr. Massey mentioned ■ a suggestion that in the event of the Government purchasing the freehold there would hive been a difficulty in purchasing the interests of the lessees. Was not the position fully covered by Section 375 of the Na-tive-Land Act? Jlr. Bell said the procedure appeared to him quite plain. Sir James Carroll: I don t think there is any dispute about that. ' Mr. Jennings asked the witness soma questions as to.the price- demanded for estates.

Maoris and the Government. "If you are putting it to mo that. the Government pay a lair price for Jiaori land," said Mr. Bell, "I don't know. But the Maoris do not think they do." Jlr. Jennings: Is it unusual for Maori land boards to havo frequent meetings whoii dealing with Natives? Mr. Bell said it was not unusual, but ho had never heard of another caso like this, in which the Jiaori Land Board were trying to persuade Maori owners to sell against their will. / Kir James Carroll took exception to this statement. '

Mr. Dell said tho whole of the evidence before him showed that. the board had dono all they could to persuade tho Natives that it was ior their benefit to sell the land. Ho had obtained this evidence in correspondence with his clients and from other sources.

To another question, Mr. Bell said he thought Mr. Jones could not havo recovered against the assurance fund. Ho might havo had a mortgago set aside. ■iir James Carroll: You said that the board forced this salo through. In what way did thoy force tho salo through that you aro aware of? Mr. Bell: The board, after the first meeting, adjourned for a second meeting. A resolution was not passed at the second meeting, arid they adjourned for a third mooting. The board, between tho second and third meeting, knew that tho Natives were without independent (legal) advice, and they know that the Natives were changing their opinion and wefo being persuaded to change their opinions. Sir James Carroll: Is not that a conjecture on your part? Jlr. Bell: A logical deduction!

Sir Jas. Cai-roll: "You suggest an act of compulsion on the part of the board. That wants clearing up. Mr. Bell: Tho board had decided to exercise its power of coercing those who wero against the sain to execute- tho transfer or couveynnco in favour of the intending purchaser?. Having ascertained that the Maoris wero adverse, the board continued to hold meetings, until it could exercise its statutory power of coercing. Ho did not suggest that tho board was corrupt. Its members must have been convinced that it (tho sale) wes in the Maori interest.

WDro They Misled, Sir Jas. Carroll: Were they (the Natives) misled? Mr. Bell: Certainly, they were misled— misled by being informed that they must raise the .£BOO or surrender. Sir 3as. Carroll: l'ou are not prepared to say who misled them? Sir. Bell: Yes, I am. lam prepared to say that (heir own committee misled them.' When I say misled, I don't menu any more than that the comniittua misunderstood the whole position, and that tho Maoris misunderstood it.

Sir Jas. Carroll: Did the Maoris subsequently toll you that they were misled? Mr. Bell: One of two made the usual statements to me afterwards: That they did not get enough, or something. After some, further questions, Sir Jas. Carroll remarked: "Of course you nrc aware that the board has to deal with hundreds and thousands of transactions in regard to the alienation of land?" Mr. Bell: "I think you are exaggerating! If you nro suggesting to me that this was not an exceptional matter, and one which required very great care—where the Natives wore being asked to part with their land for considerably less than its value—.

then I differ, and express my opinion that it was exceptional, ami did require special care. I think if you had suggested it to the hoard, that they would have taken care."

Sir Jas. Carroll: You can't suggest anything to a Statutory Board. To another question, Mr. Bell replied (hat if it were a rule, that wherever Native land was subject to a long lease, the lessee or some other person was entitled to think that its value was ali'ected by the lease, then he would be very glad to hear it. A. number of his clients would bo very glad to engage in that kind of transaction. He was perfectly sure that the Natives did not get vatuo for their land because he had great respect for (ho opinion of the gentlemen- who had seen and purchased it. The committee, for some reason, had been careful not to let him know that the Natives had changed their minds. He thought that Messrs. Te AViti Mncdonald'and Hardy liad arrived at the conclusion that it would bo a very good thin" if ho did not conio (to tlio meeting of owners).

The Public Interest. Assuming that tho Government had taken no steps to defeat a claim against tho assurance fund, this claim was as valid now as it had ever been. Ho was quite certain that the Natives had been injured, bnt offered no opinion as to tho action of the Government in the matter. Whether the Government had acted rightly or not, he did not think it was in the pubjic interest—but that was another matter. Sir Jas. Carroll: It appeared from your statement that Mr. Skerrett was associated with -the Commission. Mr. Bell: I assumed that tho Government paid his expenses. Sir Jas. Carroll: He was not retained by us. He was acting for certain of the owners of the Mokau Block. Mr. Bell: I am certain that Mr. Skerrott was acting under the power that you had given him to advise the Maoris. Sir Jas. Carroll: That is not so. Mr. Bell: Well, of course, you know and I don't.

Examined by the Hon. A. T. Ngata, Mr. Bell staled that he had been appointed to represent what turned out to be a largo majority of the Native owners. Mr. nardy had reported to him what happened at tho second meeting of assembled owners.

Mr. Ngata: Bo that the charges you have made against the board and particularly against its president are largely from assumption? Mr. Bell: Why do you say "more par. ticularly the president?" Mr. Ngat'a stated that only the president attended tho meeting of assembled owners. "What you have said," ho asked, "is very largely your opinion as a legal gentleman!"'

Mr. Bell: I should be very much surprised to h«ar that you did not agree with me.

Mr. Bell answered a number of questions by members of the Committee, his replies being, mainly in elucidation of his previous statements.

To Mr. Henries ho stated tliat he had no knowledge of tho third —rpt-'"- —>. til he saw in the papers that the eale had been agreed to. He biMoviM i.,.u both Mr. Bowler and Mr. Dalziell had desired him to ue present. Questions by Mr. Dalziell. Mr. Dalziell, while putting a series of questions, stated that', even at' the second meeting, Mr Jjlair, on behalf of Mr. Skerrett represented a section of tho Natives. Mr. Dalziell next referred to a eliite. ment by Mr. Well that if 480.0G0 was the value of the leases tho Natives had been- grossly wronged when tho freehold was purchased for .E25.000. Mr. Bell said he did know something about this and suggested that hn should not be asked to sav any more about it. Mr. Dalziell: I don't think it is fair to mako any suggestion of that kind. Mr. Bell: You are asking mo what Mr. Skerrott thought. I can't say. Mr. Dalziell: You said that*tho board, and a section of the Natives, wero endeavouring to prolong these meetings so that tho Natives could be induced to sell.' Mr. Bell: I think the board did, and

I think you did. too. Mr. Dalziell: I did, of course. 'Do'you not know that the chairman of tho me?tin<r was asked by representatives of both sides to adjourn for their mutual convenience. Jlr. Hemes: Which meeting? Mr. Dalziell: Each meeting that adjourned. Mr. Dalziell next stated that at the second meeting Mr. Te Witi Macdonald told him that his section were willing to sell. Mr. Bell: Then Mr. Te Witi Macdouald Mr. Dalziell: Yes, I think probably Mr. Bell: Seems to have sold everybody—who purchased him? Mr. Dalziell: Don't you think he may have honestly come to the conclusion that it was the best thing to do in tho circumstances?

Jlr.- Bell: Absolutely impossible, berniifo if he had he must have telegraphed mo that he hart changed his mind. Mr. Dalziell: You said that they had arrived at a conclusion that it was a very good thing that yon should not attend. Do you think that is quite a fair way to put it? Jlr. Bell: They were either knaves or fools. You arc asking me to assume that they were fools. I don't know which it was. I told Mr. Hardy to his face that he was knave or fool.

Jlr. Bell added that the reason he did not go to Tβ Kuiti was that he had been informed the Natives would not passtha resolution to sell. No difficulty in connection with the raising of the .CBOO had intervened.. Ho had ilflO in hand from the Natives, a sum quite sufficient to take him to Te Kuiti and back.

Jlr. Dalziell: You have suggested that the board had no power to order in connection with this ,£2500. You don't know, of your own knowledge, that the board did this? Jtr. Bell: , No. I have not seen tho order. Mr." Dalziell said that anything of tho kind would have to be done by resolution of the Natives. It was only fair to statethat no such order had been made. Jlr. Bell said there could not be <i. valid order. But was it suggested that ho was wrong? Mr. Ngata ?aid J[r. Bowler would bo called as a witness. At this stage the sitting terminated. It was agreed to resume on Wednesday next at 11 a.m.