MORE ABOUT MOKAU.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1213, 23 August 1911, Page 6

MORE ABOUT MOKAU.

THE INQUIRY, STATEMENT BY MR. MASSEY. THE PUBLIC INTEREST. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. . The .Nativo Affairs Committee yesterday continued its inquiry info tho eircumstnn'ces surrounding the alienation of tho Mokau Block. Members present were: Tho chairman (Mr. W. T. Jennings), Sir James Carroll, tho Hon. A. TV Ngata, and Messrs. Te Rangihiroa, W. D. S. Macdonald, T. E. Y. Seddon, B. Dive, F. Mander, and W. H. Berries. Mr. W. F. Massey, Leader of tho Opposition, was also present. At the invitation of tho chairman, Mr. Massey opened tho proceedings by reading tho following statement:— A General H<Krj,ew. • (1) Tho Mokau-Mohakatino Blocks, coneisting of 53,000 acres of land, were leaseel by Mr. Joshua Jones from the Native owners for fifty-six years from July, (2)' With tho object of providing sufficient capital to develop the property, Mr. Jones mortgaged his interests to an English firm. (3) In . courso of time tho mortgagees foreclosed and the property was sold in New Plymouth by order of the Registrar of tho Supremo Court, arid was bought in by the representatives of tho mortgagees. ' . . ' ~ (4) Tho mortgagees having become the owners of the leasehold interests, sold such interests privately to Mr. Hermann Lewis. • (5) Mr. : Hermann Lewis remortgaged the property to tho English firm and their representatives for tho amount of the purchase money or thereabouts. (G) Messrs. Findlay and Dalziell were solicitors for Mr. Hermann Lewis and' -mortgagees of that individual's .interest to the amount' of =£1000. ' (7) Mr. Hermann Lewis apparently approached tho Government through his solicitors or otherwise and the result was that an Order-in-Conncil was issued so as to enable him to purchase the whole block from the Nativo owners, by so doing avoiding the provisions with regard to limitation of areas in the Nativo Land Act, 1509.

(8) A meeting of assembled owners was held-at Xe'.Kuiti, and an-offer was made By Hermann Lewis to purchase the freehold. His offer was declined. Another ■meeting was held and adjourned, and at tho adjourned meeting it was decided to accept ,£25.000 Ln cash and worth of shares—in a company to be formed— for the freehold of the land. That works out at 10s. -lid. an' acre, and it has been stated that the meeting, was not properly, representative of Native-owners. (9) A meeting of the Executive was held on March 15 of this year, the Hon. Jas. Carroll presiding, when it was aereed to authorise the alienation of land referred to by the Ordcr-in-Council. A meeting of the Maori land Board was held at Te Kuiti on March. 22, when tho sale was confirmed, but the Gazette with tho Or-der-in-Council was not published until March 20, or, a week after tho sale had been confirmed by the Maori Land, Boards

• (10)' The company does not. proposo to part with its mineral .rights to .the new settlers; so .that, with .the other! blocks of 'Native land in the same locality, the leases of which. nro'held -.by'the company, or members of the company, they will possess what, will practically amount 'to a monopoly of 'the coal-hearing areas on the \7est _ Coast, of .the Taranaki provincial district." '''■•'. ' i"A Very Serious Mistake." These, said Air. Massey, were the main facts, and he .submitted that, up to the present, they ifad'not been proved to be incorrect, or even explained away. He did not profess to be strictly accurate in the whole of the details. It was impossible for anyone to be absolutely accurate in such matters unless ho were able to obtain information from thi Departmental officers.'Ho was very, strong-. ly of opinion that tho Government had made a very serious mistake in allowing the Molcau block to pass to private individuals. Tho proper thing to do would have been to purchase in tho ordinary way from the Native owners and the lessors. The Government should then have retained the best of tho coal-bearing area and settled what remained undor the optional system. Sir James Carroll said that some of Mr. Massey's previous utterances on the subject' did not seem to: be covered by his present statement. Ho had been reported in tho '"New Zealand Herald" as saying that Mr. Jones's title'to tho estate had become null and void. Mr. Massey explained that this was not quite correct. He had said that the Eoyal Commission (Sir Robert Stout and Mr. Jackson Palmer) had fpund that the covenants of tho lease had not been complied; with, particularly a covenant pro; viding that' a company formed by Mr. Jones should spend JE3OOO per annum in developing the mineral resources upon the property. On this account tho leases had become either void or voidable.. Mr. Massey added that he had.the report of the commission, which could be put in in evidence ' " ■ Sir James'Carroll: Do you conclude now that the title of land legally passed from Jones, to Hermann Lewis? Mr. Massey, said hi.«. opinion was that Jones had no legal title. He might have an interest in equity. Sir James Carroll: Then it was open for Hermann' Lewis legally to deal with tho Natives? Mr. Massey-. Through the Government. It was impossible for him to deal with the Natives except through the O.rder-in-Counctt. ' . Sir James Carroll: The Order-in-Council comes in when the resolution is cniried. Mr. Massey. Yes, by tho assembled owners. T/jfjiiJifMii k> Jls, MwrtsMmw/ 1 that tho Government should have bought this land, and.that it .was bought at 10s. i\&. an acre, Sir James Carroll.'asked whether Mr. Massey thought that' tho Government could have bought it at 10s. i](]. an acre? Mr. Massey said he hoped that cvidenco would bo forthcoming' to show that tho Government could have bought it for less than 10s. id. an acre. To another question, he replied'.that it was for the Government to say whether the leasehold interests were valid or not. Sir James Carroll: You have not calculated the value of the interests of tho lessees? Mr. Massey: Hermann Lewis's? I prosumo it was worth what ho paid for it. ! Sir James Carroll: And you presume that tho Government could have got it for that? ■ '.- -Mr. Massey: I don't-know—that is a question for them, to answer. In succeeding, conversation, Sir James Carroll stated that tho Government had been advised by its valuators not to pay more than .£35,000 for the whole estate. It was just a matter of opinion between Mr. Massey and the Government as' to what was the right thing for the Government to do.

Mr. Massey: Exactly; I think the Goveminent were wrong in allowing speculators to como in and, practically exploit tho. settlers. Sir James Carroll: There, are no settlers. "Idle for 20 Years,'Mr.' Massey: "There will be, I hope." ft was so much the worse that the land iad been allowed to lie idlo for 20 years. Sir Jas. Carroll: It was in European '"•"ds. and got into a muddle—became th-.t ■•'iliject of litigation, and all sorts of Tlxamined as to the conditions under I>! cli the land had been sold, Mr. Massey ■ ; -' that the present owners did not in- ■"' to part with the mineral rights. c:; r Jas. Carroll said the mineral rights '•?■' gone, under the lease, in any case. Mr. Massey: "Yes, for_ the term of tho Ifn.'-'u." It secmodto him a very extraordinary state of things that the Government should allow a third party to come in'in this way, instead lot dealing with the land themselves. To a statement by Sir Jas. Carroll that th« nvrangoment mado amounted, in effect, to close settlement of the land, Mr: Massey replied that he hoped it did. It also meant exploitation of the settlers who would come upon tho land in future. They ■ would' certaialy not ho able to get

upon tho land upon terms as good as the Government could have given them. Sir Jas. Carroll stated that the land was being offered in ureas of -101) acres of firstclass land, and equivalent areas of second and third-class land, to persons making the necessary statutory declaration. Mr. Hemes said these conditions wcio not contained in the Order-in-Council. Sir Jas. Carroll repeated that the conditions were as he had stated. They could not get past tho Act in any case. lie added that Hr. Masscy's statement could ho printed. They would then ho ablo to see. what witnesses I hey would require. Sir. Massey stated that he might possibly want another witness ov two in addition to those ho had named at the previous sitting.' He had received a letter from residents in the (Mokau) locality covering an offer by Mr. F. Rentonbury, and a Native jiamed To Oro, to appear as witnesses. He did not know these people personally, but they had asked for an opportunif.y to give evidence. Tho lion. A. T. NgaUi: I think, Jh. Massey, we may boil the issues down in this matter to practically two, and I should like you to affirm these if you concur:— i I (1) "That in issuing the Order-in-Coun-cil tho Government committed a breach of the public interest." "Detrimental to the Public Interest." Mr. Massey: "Did something detrimen- j tal to tho public interest. That is my opinion." Mr. Ngata: "In the secoDrl place tho transaction was not in tho interests of the Native owners." 'Mr. Massey: That also is my opinion, but I don't want in any way to limit the inquiry. • ■ ■ ■ Mr. Ngata: I quite understand that, but these are the outstanding features. To a question by Mr. Ngata as to whether he thought the Government in permitting the alienation of tho land to a private individual had acted in a manner contrary to policy, Mr. Massey replied i that he thought the action of the Government contrary to public interest. Mr. Ngata: If it were alienated under conditions securing the ordinary limitation of area would you also regard that | as against tho public interests? Mr. Massey said he saw no reason for the third party coming in. Mr. Ngata next referred to a statement made by Mr. Massey that "Tho lawyers who acted for the individual who was purchasing from the Natives were Findlay, Dalzicll, and Co.; tho gentleman who signed tho Order-in-Council was Sir James Carroll, Acting-Prime Minister; and the chairman of the syndicate which secured tho land was an eX-Minislcr of Lands with strong leasehold proclivities—Mr. 11. M'Nab." "W,hat," asked Mr. Ngata, "did you suggest by this combination of names?*' i Mr. Massey said that to the best of his recollection ho had said that Sir James Carroll presided at the meeting at which tho Order-in-Couhcil was signed, not that he signed it. As to the' latter part of his statement ho was not quite clear when ho made it as to whether the land remained in the hands of tho first syndicate or whether a company had been, formed. It turned out that a company calling itself the Mokau Land and Estate Company had boon formed. "These are the three facts," said Mr. Massey. "and I think that 1 was justified in stating them.". Mr. Ngata: Was not a suggestion made by your juxtaposition of tho three names that Di. Findlay used his influence witJi tho Prime Minister to secure a concession for Mr. R. M'Nab? V :.. "Leasehold Proclivities." Mr. Massey: Oil, no! I can't allow Mr. Ngata or anybody else to place me in that position. With regard to thii reference to leasehold proclivities he had to point out that wh'ilerMr. M'Nacr did.everything possible (as Minister for Lands); to make, freehold .'itapossiblo so far. as. tho Crown-lands. of- this, colony were concerned he was himself quite prepared to form one in. a syndicate acquiring' a largo'freehold block. As to the reference to tho firm of Messrs. Findlay and-Dalzicll (of-which Sir John Findlay was senior partner) he did not think that firm :shonld ..have .allowed itself to be placed in the position that it occupied. ,:..-,. Mr. Ngata: "Apart from the propriety of it, was the suggestion " Mr.w/Massoy:. l.make no. suggestion. Mr.''''-Ngata:' "You consider that the Government could have bought all tho interests involved at' a price that would not have involved a loss to tho country?" Mr;Massey: "That is my opinion." Miv. Ngata'stated that tho Government had been asked to pay ,£36,500 for. the interests of the Native .owners and of Mr. Hermann ..Levins. . Their officers had atviscd that they should not pay moro than .£35,000 for all 'interests. , i Mr. -Massey said the land could not bo bought for twice .i£.1G,500 to-day. Mr. Ngata said he spoke of* the facts as they stood at the.time. He referred next to a question by Mr. Massey as to why a.sufficient area was not reserved for the Native owners. Did Mr. Massey mean to assert that these' peoplo were landless?

Reservations for the Maoris. Mr. Mnssey: "Not at nil." But tho commission (Sir Robert Stout and Mr Jackson Palmer) had recommended that sufficient reservations should be made for tho use of the Maori people. Thia had not been done. Mr. Ngata stated that the duty devolved upon the .Land Board of seeing that the Natives :wore not left, landless. He asked whether the Natives had not made a good bargain ? v Mr. Massey said that if the covenants of thepngina.l lease had been complied with a sum of ,£3OOO per annum would have beon expended, since 1882, on developing tho mineral resources of the Mokau Block". Under the lease the Natives wore to receive ten per cent, of the profit from the minerals. It jeemed to him that if thi money had been expended the Natives would have been in for a verv good thin" —a very much better thing than had a£ tually. come to them. Mr. Ngata: "That covenant was waived. Mr. Massey said thai was a matter for lawyevs. . I i - Mx. Ngata said the covenant was waived I I m consideration- oS an extra, rent-payment lot ,£!f'o per annum. •■ Answering the' chairman '(Mr. Jennin-'s), Mr. Massey .said that ilthoiigh lie had been in the vicinity he had never been upon the Mokau Block. He had had JetHere Horn settlers in the )dcj)W% sM/p, 'tint muc/i of fie /and was suitabk for I clow, 'settlement, and that the rest of it was good grazing land. Ho had heard it stated in tho House that three valuers respectively Government, local body, and private, had valued tho land at less than the price paid for it. _Al this stage the sitting terminated, .the committee will.resume to-day, when the first witness to be examined'will bo Mr. Joshua Jones.