THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 969, 9 November 1910, Page 4

THE HOUSE.

FOUR BILLS PASSED. '' When the House 'of Representatives resumed its sittings yesterday, the following Bills were put through their fiDal stages:—. .1 - Companies ''Amendment Bill. .Judicature Amendment Bill. Education Reserves Amendment Bill. : Counties Amendment Bill. DESTITUTE PERSONSBILL. . THE BILL IN COMMITTEE. , In moving the committal of the Destitute Persons Bill, '.' '■'■' ' ; The PRIME MINISTER /shift" that , unhappily child and wife "desertion was increasing in New Zealand.':,•-'Of the 2380 children in the industrial schools 50.per. cent, had been deserted cither by one parent or the other, chiefly by the father.. In all,- 1566 were totally maintained by the. State.: Altogether, £150,000 per annum had to- be found by the taxpayers to support destitute people. . ./ ..Mr. HERRIES (Tauranga)' said that if thp;Biir;woro. put :into force as it stood it would' bo very unpopular, although it mights bo very just. Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) argued that the definition of legal cruelty should be extended. It was a scandal that a wife should have to tolerate the presence of a husband who became intoxi-cated-five nights a week. '•• A husband should not ...be. allowed., .t0.... usq . .vile language to his wife no more than lie was allowed; to beat her.' There should be a provision to meet cases where private deeds of separation were broken. Instead of, tho wife having to-institute proceedings all that should bo necessary .was that she. should, be required to deposit'.tho 'deed in Court.''/ Mr. HOGG ~ (Mastcrton) ."advocated heavy., punishment '.. in...respect ;pf child or wife : desertion, iwhich- was 'a orimo not known' to the : lower ("animal'world.

:v Mr: v WRJGHI,' ..(Wellington '." South) urgedrthev.necessity.'for.' legislation in the "direction, of; preventing a/husband from selling lip -Lis.' property before deserting his wife and' children;''' ' ■ 'It was then agreed that ' the . Bill should'be considered in Committee; Liability,for Maintenance.:: ; ;;"', _ When- Clause .2 was under consideration, ■■ Mr. WILFORD moved;-an. amendment to the-effect that ah "habitual inebriate" should bo deemed to be a man who."frequently." used] alcoholic liquors in excess. ; Upon % a division, the amendment was lost by 42 votes to 21.' An amendment by-Mr.- Herdman that a "sister" should not be included in the term "near relative of a destitute -person'' was rejected' on the• voices.'' :. Mr.' .WILFORD : (Hutt) -movod an amendment to iree-thomothef!s; father or mother from liability in the case of the upkeep of an illegitimate child. The division was equal, 31 votes on either side, and the Chairman' gave his casting jivote against .'the amendment. : Mr. RUSSELL' (Avon) -proposed an amendment to include.,Jho..father or mother of the person" adjudged to be the father of an illegitimate child among those who should be liable for the upkeep of an illegitimate child. This was agreed to on the voices. ...

As-regards the question-'Of. evidence, ... Mr. WILFORD moved ah amendment to'delete a clause which provided that the evidence of tho mother shall not be necessary for the making of an affiliation order or maintenance order. The amendment was "rejected by 36 votes to 23. Clause 59 provides that every indictable offence against this Act shall also be an offence punishable on summary conviction by imprisonment* for six months, but; no.person shall be punished for the.: same offence both on indictment and' on', summary''conviction. This, said Mr. SVilford, i.was an attompt' to do;-away with; trial by jury. He moved that?tho ;:clause';,. be not adopted. The. clause'was -retained by .32 vdtes'to-25; """;•■ ' \ .'■ Mothort of Trial. A similar question was:at",issue in regard to Clause -70// whic- provides that no proceedings'under thcAct sliall be the' subject of trial by jury. Mr. Wilford moved as an amendment that tho clause bo rejected. The .PRIME MINISTER said that no alteration in the clause was suggested when the. Bill, was ...before tho Statutes Revision Committee. Mr. lIERRIES (Tauranga) declared that strong exception was taken to the clause-'by'several members* of the Committee.

The Hon. T. Y. DUNCAN expressed tho opinion that tho Prime ■■ Minister should givo way in regard to thoclauso. The PRIME MINISTER said that ho believed in trial by jury, but it would not do to apply the principlo to proceedings under this Act. It had to bo remembered that the members of the Committee were mostly lawyers; Mr. Duncan: That is tho very worst part of it. (Laughter.) Mr. STALLWORTHY (Kaipara) held that if'cases of the kind were to bo heard by juries, women as well as men should be eligible for appointment to the jury.

Replying to further criticism, the Prime Minister-said that under the Act a magistrate could. not five a. heavier sentenco than six month's. Was the change necessary? Had the old system' broken down? Broken down was no name for it. ■ Scores of , meii were running away, from their wives in New Zealand every year.

A Ministerial Reverse. Upon a division the clause was rejected by 39 votes to 25. Against, the Clause (39): ■Allen . . Hogan . Anderson Lang • Arnold Malcolm Bollard Mander Buick Massoy I Clark Newman Craigie Nosworthy Dive Okey Duncan, J. Pearco Fisher - Phillipps • Forbes Poland Fraser Rhodes Glover - Ross Guinness Russell Guthrie Scott Hall Taylor, T. E. Hardy' Thomson, G. M. Herdman Wilford Herries Wright Hhio For the Clause. (25). Buddo Ngata Buxton Parata Davay Poole Dillon Rangihiroa Duncan, T. Sidey EH Smith Field Stallwortliy Hogg . Steward . Lawry Taylor, E. H. Luke Thomson, J. C. Macdonald Ward Mackenzie, T. -Witty Myers

A new clause, 188, provides that if while a separation order remains in force the wife .dies intestate her property shall go as it would have gone if .her husband had been then dead. Mr. Hemes (Tauranga) thought that the clause should not bo'agreed to without a careful explanation. It was pointed out by Mr. Wilford that there -might be cases of deathbed reconciliations. Tho Prime Minister said ho did not see why- the clause should be retained. It was then deleted.The Bill was reported with amendments. LOCAL BODIES' LOANS. In Committee cm the Local Bodies' Loans Amendment Bill. Mr. NEWMAN (Manawatu) moved as an amendment that loans provisionally approved (as well as loans granted) prior to the coming into force of tho State Advances Bill should be issued under the old system. Mr. GUTHRIE (Oroua) spoke strongly in favour of the amendment. The PRIME MINISTER said that he could not accept the amendment. It was a pity notice had hot been given of the amendment. --■"'■•

Mr. NEWMAN said that he hoped tho Prime Minister would reconsider the matter. His proposal was, in hisview, merely an act of justice. Mr. MASSEY said it was understood : that where tho preliminary steps had been taken tho loans would be granted under the old systom., to that, effect was in the original Bill, but it was struck out on the motion of the Primo Minister. The PRIME MINISTER declared that the fact that he hadrnoved to strike out the clause showed that he had not made an implied promise. There could bo no doubt but that the local bodies wore perfectly satisfied with the new systom. Mr. Massey: Tho big ones may' bo, but the small ones are not. Mr. PEARCE (Patea) asked tho Prime Minister if it were not a fact that tho president of tho Counties' Association had not on behalf of the whole of the counties objected to the doing ' away with the Loans to Local Bodies Act. Tho Primo Minister: Ho did not havo the authority of all the counties, and I; told him that I would not agree to his proposal. ■ Mr. MASSEY said that if the local bodies.had the necessary security they could get loans cheaply without recourse to tho Government. '■••'■. /Mr. HOGG (Masterton) said that he represented twelve local bodies. In his opinion, the granting of loans under the old system .was not in .the interests of local bodies. He approved of tho new system. •Mr.; GUTHRIE (Orona) pointed out that under.the old system local bodies got their loans at the rate of £3 10s. (principal and interest), whilst tinder tho new systom the rate was, in all/ £4 17s. 6d.—in fact, a little more. Effect of the Change of Systoms. Tho PRIME MINISTER, in the course of further remarks, declared that tho opposition to tho new systom came from people who wanted, to see dear money. Mr..MASSEY contended: that it was the small local bodies which wero at a disadvantage under the new system. ,'. ; The PRIME..MINISTER.said. that, he Jiad no fear as to .'the financial position of the Dominion. '■ He would take an opportunity of laying on the table a return showing what advances had been lnado under the now system. Nonprofit, but, a loss, was made out of" tho public bodies in Tegard to the scheme Ho was not prepared to have two systoms of lending in operation by the State at the one time. It was not a fact that small local bodies had been placed at a disadvantage.

Upon ' a division, Mr. Newman's amendment was negatived by 44 votes to 24.

An amendmeht was then proposed' by Newman', to'meet the ease of local bodies who had not lifted their advance under the old' system, and under the new system received a lesser advance on account of the higher rate than was necessary to complete the work. The proposal was rejected by 44 votes to 27. A new clause was adopted to provide that a pSH in regard to a loan should not be .upset on the ground of minor irregularities. . ... A Misunderstanding. ■ :; Mr. WILFORD (Hutt). moved an amendment to the effect that where a loan was not required for the purpose for which it was raised tho money, or part of it, might upon a second poll bo diverted to any other work which, tho local body is authorised to undertake. The PRIME MINISTER said that he could not accept the amendment. Supposing a local body raised money for a dock? Mr. Wilford: You can't apply this to the Wellington dock. The Prime Minister (continuing) instanced another case where a local body might be desirous of undertaking a waterworks scheme. Mr. Wilford said that tho case of tho Wellington dock was tho subject of another Bill. As regards tho waterworks scheme, tenders had already been called. His clause could not therefore apply to either, case. As a matter of fact, Mr. Martin, solicitor to tho Munipal Corporations Association, had asked him to move the clause to moot a oaso which had arisen somowhero of which ho had no knowledge. There was a striking co-incidenco about the illustrations, which the Primo Minister had given, but on this occasion Sir Joseph was quite wrong. Sir Joseph (warmly): If you find them personal that is your business. I did not intend thorn to bo so. Tho clauso was rejected on tho voices. A Close Division. Mr. MASSEY moved a now clauso to the effect that.the sinking-funds in regard to municipal loans not guaranteed by the Government need not be invested in Government securities.

Tho clause was rejected by 37 votes to 34. For the Clause (34). Allen Lang Anderson ' Luke Arnold ' M'Laren Bollard Malcolm Buchanan Mander Buick Massey Buxton- . Newman Clark Nosworthy Dive ' Okey Fraser Pearco Glover Phillipps Greonslade Poolo Guthrie Rhodes Hardy , Scott Herdman Sidcy Herrics Thomson, G. M. Hme Wilford Against tho Clauso (37). Brown M'Kenzio, R. Buddo ' Mackenzie, T. Carroll Millar Craigio Ngata Davoy . Parata Dillon Poland Duncan, T. Rangihiroa Ell Reed Field Ross . Fisher Russell V Forbes Smith Graham Stallwortliy Hall Steward Hanan -Taylor, E. H. Hogan Thomson, J. C. Hogg Ward Jennings Witty Lawry Wright Macdonald The Bill was then reported with amendments. [.. AMENDMENTS AGREED TO. The amendments made by tho Legislative Council in tho Kaiapoi Native Reserve Bill and the Commercial Trusts -Bill wero agreed to. RATING AMENDMENT BILL. In moving. the." committal of tho Rating Amendment Bill, . Tho Hon. -A. NGATA stated that the measure would be found to be very useful. It might/ of course, be said that complete success would not bo achieved until all the Native lands wero individualised. His'reply to that was that that would' not be an accomplished fact in the course of a lifetime. . So mucn tho worse for tho Natives. ,

Mr. Ngata: So much the worse for everybody. Continuing, Mr. Ngata said that experience would show that the Natives would raise the money to pay rates. Tho measure would forco a largo area ■of Native land in the North Island into settlement. Owing to the want of development there wore certain lands in tho Urewera Country and tho North of Auckland which would have to bo exempted. It would take some time before'the valuation rolls were perfect. The Maoris would soon realise that rates meant votes. With tile growth of industry there would be an increasing clamour for roads and improvements. Mr HERRIES (Tauranga). congratulated the Government on tho advancement which tho Bill marked. One really good proposal was that by which tho "actual occupier of tho land was made responsible for the payment of the rates. Ho would like to know what was going to bo dono with the 800,000 acres of land vested in tho Maori Land Boards, and not yet leased for profitable, occupation. He would rather have seen the board charged with tho rates, ..with, .power to impose it as a charge on subsequent lessees. The Bill would materially aid local bodies. Mr. JENNINGS (Taumarunui) welcomed the Bill, but expressed regret at the fact, that members took so little interest in-anything pertaining to Nativo land. Speculation of the vilest order was going on in Native land in the-'King Country. Ho had done his best to stop it, but tho law unfortunallowed it. Under the guise of aoasehold large areas of Maori land were being acquired by a few people Several other members continued tho idiseusiaon, which was favourable to tho measure. .The Bill was set down for committal, and the House adjourned at 1.30 a.m. ... ..