FINANCE and FIGHTING.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 930, 24 September 1910, Page 8

FINANCE and FIGHTING.

A DEBENTURE TRANSACTION.

ANGRY WORDS. .

MR., MASSEY & SIR JOSEPH WARD,

"I'll talk to you - straight shortly,!' remarked Sir Joseph Ward to Mr. Massey. in the House of Representatives yesterday. "You will get. it back straight," was Mr. Ma-ssey's rejoinder.It subsequently appeared that the' Leaders of the respective parties had in mind their dispute as to the cost of the conversion' of the half-million guaranteed debentures in 1893-4. On a recent occasion the Prime Minister had stated in reply to Mr. Massey. that the transaction ,had resulted in a net increase to the liability of the Dominion of £19,629, whilst there had beeij a decrease in the interest by £2519. Earlier in the day, yesterday, Mr. Massey had read a- report which 'be had from Messrs. Barr, Leary, and / Williams, accountants, Wellington. It was briefly to the' effect'that the.increased liability to the Dominion on. account of the conversion ..was £279,702, vhilst the interest had increased by £6325. Mr. 'Massey • agreed that. tho report should ;be made a Parliamentary paper. _ / Tlio Prime Minister: said .that it. was .an extraordinary thing for Mr.'Massey to have turned back for'the third time, this session on the. suhject. He read from ' Messrs. Barr, Leary_ and . Cp.'s letter :' "Acting under your . instructions that I should examine tho statement . I now beg: to report as follows." Where were the . instructions to the firm? .. - ■: : • ' 1 .', Mr. Massey:: : You t havo - got • them thoro. ' - -■' - ■ . V : Sir Joseph,, proceeding, said he did not know of' any more unfair fighting. He called it mean, .fighting—in fact, 'contemptible fighting. What was,.the object? In winding up his remarks ■Mr. Massey had-said: If this is right, whatiabout;tlie sinking funds? . In..tho' whole of it ho was attacking , a dead, man. / --/,;'-/.' ; Mr.' Massey:/That is-, absolutely "in- ' - / -''. . . Sir Joseph:/I;accept your statement, .and I will give you ..proof. : ; Coiitinuiiig, Sir Joseph said that tho attack must bp intended to l apply.', to him. Not a thing connected - with .it had been carried out by him. . Mr. Bal- ' ian'ce had undertaken. the, conversion; to -save the : country going on to Ithe market for'a .loan.' , "Cave the Whole Show ; Away." . / There'was a. ''final ,statement; ii, Messrs. 'Barr,.' Leary /.arid Co'.'s .letter which gave -the, wholei show 'away. : .They said: . '.'ln considering ..the.': matter; of : interest,'the question as ,to whether the', net - amount .received: from'! the sinking fund is or is ..not : used for j,reproductive works hap: not been taken iiito cohsidiefa- ; tion, as it, is outside ihy ,'province, .and probably .not:/:'ascertainable:"/ /■■ The; 'whole,, question:';of: the advisability .. .of. the conversion. hinged on- the necessity for , funds . for tho public works. It had ..achieved'.,'' two' objecte— : (1) provided money : to carry on works,', (2) enabled the. Dominion /to .keep out of .'tho'; money , market.'. 'As a result- of the conversion, there had'been effected, a saving of £2000 per annum, whereas,, if a -loan .lia'd ; been raised for . the amount, at 3i .per cent.; it would havo cost;the.:Dominion over £6000' for .interest. / ';- :-/. ;:' '.. : "; - ?. ■ / . _ Mr. Buchanan', (Wairarapa), referring 'to .the interview', with'.Mr. Leary, of , Barr, Leary. and Co., said he had nothing t0.,, add, .to ..what thb Leader, of the Opposition had.'said in regard to the presentation of the request to the firm of accountants. Reiiiarks by Mr. Taylor. Mr. T. . E. ;■ .Taylor'.,/ (Christchurch North) said. tho. debate. that'. night clearly:showed .the" evils' of party poli- ■ tics. He had looked into both documents , very closely, and he had come i to : , the'-.deliberate conclusion. that there was a, /distinct element of. dishonesty in, Messrs.- Barr, 'Leary . 1 and Williams's paragraph : referring .to. the results', of the' transaction./ His reason, for. 'saying this .was that the whole thing - turned' on whether .or not tho not result, so far/as the- sinking.funds .were .concerned., ,was,such as to warrant-the transaction being, carried' but.:)..He,'was,con-; fident.'thati of/• 'politicians,, a. jury . would/come to the same; conclusion as lie.had, / "You know nothing about -it,!' ;;cpmmented Mr. Massey,' as Mr. Taylor was proceeding/to further, criticise : , Messrs.: Barr, Leary and .'C'o.'s certificate: , ■ ■ Mr. Taylor: On your farm I would bow to .vour superior knowledge, but. not in ,this matter,- for I know as much about tho subject as you do. . Mr. Jas. Allen (Bruce) . declared that the Premier's statement on tho transaction ..was wrong. /"' Sir Joseph: It is' not. 1 '" - '. Mr.,-Allen: ;,It;.is:a simple transaction. You: have been misled by /an officer ofjour: Department,, who "did not .under-' 'stand; the transaction. . '/' Why. do , you. continue to stick. to a misleading statement;alone? . Why did the ;firm add the paragraph which' he had read? Mr.; T. E. Taylor: It was impertinence.' - ■■■:'; ■ Sir Joseph.: Yes, it; was gross impertinence. ' ; - , . ; I 'Proceeding, , Sir, Joseph Ward asked i why the firm/had ignored what. New; •Zealand had' saved over the transac-'l tion." He .believed the;report was ! an ■honest : one j ■ but lie would : liko to ' see - the instructions, sent'to them." No man; living could, say that ho had anything-; :to ,do with; the matter.' Why/ was hebeing brought' into the matter ? It .was; - not done s for mero political pastime.To Mr; Massey.and.Mr. Allen he would; say: "Own up that you have made: a mistake." ■, ;: / : ' .•Mr:;Massey :■lt is for you to o\vu up. > Sir, Joseph;: Both'of you are barking' up the wrong tree. . . "Wonderful State of Excitement." : Mr. Massey, referring to the subject,! said that he had a fow: words to say'to the Primo Minister, and ho hoped he' would romember.them, i-Sir Joseph' had worked himself up to:such-'a/fearful and; wonderful state of excitoment lib would be sorrj' to emulate. In the course of. his remarks tlie' Prime ' Minister had made an unfair reference : to himself when he had stated that lie had attacked a dead]man by something which he had done'.' Was he aware of the fact that he .(Mr. Massey)':. had never m'et the late. Mr.. Ballancej.Vfor whom ho had, however, thb greatest, respect ? "I never attack a dead man, remarked Mr.- Massey with warmth, "nor, do I shelter myself behind a dead nian." After stating that he' would give Sir Joseph somo time 'to think over what he had said, Mr. Massey again proceeded to deal with' the trans,action. Ho said, that, ho had come across- it whilst looking into the, question,, of : sinking funds. In tho Financial!', Statement ■ .for ..1894,' when. ' Sir Joseph was'-. Treasurer,' he /.stated ■ that ' three /conversions had taken placo during the year. /Now this transaction took place'during, that year. lt ; : mattered not to him "who was •tlio Treasurer., When lie looked' iiitb tho transaction die found that it had been very unsatisfactory to the Domin-; ion. When lie brought up the matter this session, Sir Joseph had rudely contradicted him. Later'-ho. had slammed a paper on the table, giving details of the transaction, as if that were to bo tho last word on the matter. .If Sir Joseph thought that that would be the , end of it he never made u bigger mis-

take in his life. Accpinpanied by a member of tlie House, whoso word would'be'--taken by every member he went to Messrs. Barr, Leary, and Op., who he was led to understand were one of-the leading firms of accountants in the Dominion. He gave them no written instruction. Mr. Buchanan, who' went with him, would say that all that happened waa that he told Mr. Leary that a disputo had arisen on the point; that some members thought a bargain had been made; . whilst he thought a big loss had boen made. In reply, Mr. Leary had said that if he were wrong he would tell him so. His. report was a very careful one, and the Prime Minister did not like it, for it would now be recorded in the journals of the House along with the other documents bearing on the subject. This report bore out his opinion, and showed that the Prime Minister, who was tho Treasurer,'was ; wrong. In his "coolermoments,'.the Prime Minister would re-; gret the attitudo which he /had taken, up. 'T don't know if Sir Joseph' intends to attack''me again;" added.: Mr. Massey, "but ! might say that -.if anybody hits me below the belt -1 .do my best to hit him in the- eye." , : - . The: Prime - Minister subsequently stated, that' he had' never sheltered himself, behind a dead man. He asked 'why' this transaction ha-d been brought up now. Was it .to connect him' i with 'it? ViV Mr. Massey: I have never mentioned your.name:, ' Continuing, Sir • Joseph Ward contended that. Messrs: Barr,' Leary and Co.' had not the position put; properly before tjhem. when asked:, to report.' They should: have : been informed that the transaction - was' meant -to ; save the expense of going on the market for anev.\ loan. v In conclusion, Mr. Massey' declared' that he was- .prepared :to ; submit.--the ; whole of the correspondence to Messrs. Barr, Learyand Co., and askthemir .they ;felt..-;.inclined. to change their, minds.