THE BIG MAIL FIGHT.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 930, 24 September 1910, Page 8

THE BIG MAIL FIGHT.

j OPENED AND WAGED IN HOUSE.

POINTED SPEECHES.

BIUCH LIGHT ON MANY ISSUES

L'- : The : oversea mails question came .up j. . whilst the Imprest Supply Bill was be- •. ■ fore tho'House of Representatives yesjv-. i terday, and led -to -a import-, aut discussion; " '-• Mr. Massey, Loader of ..the Opposltion, who brought up the question, said ;. 1 ,tliat . somo weeks ago the Premier anjif:' Bounced that - the Government, had «n- ---. tered intoan arrangement withthe U.S.S. Co. for a- four-weekly, service ■- between -New Zealand and San Fran- -' ciseo: for a year,,; the; steamers to. bo : • ithe Aorangi and tho Maitai. Ho had thought , that an opportunity would ' " ■ have been given the Houso: to fully discuss the matter. It , now;,..'.turned : . .;. cut-..that, the Oceanic' Company bad , "ieen negotiating to haye,..their. : servicia; v;. ireinstated; Tho Oceanic Company had A dnformcd ■ the Auckland 'Chamber .of T/ s X Commerce "that it had 1 been planning a ; ; resumption of -a' seventeen-day.-service Vith three weekly sailings, about May, provided,,that -thev got: £2000, subsidy, i' jper ' voyage,, and was about to open up j'lli'ir Begotiations,*. when-. it ', was . stopped; by, Ij-•'the announcemetit of the • arrangement between the.Now Zealandi Government' \ . and tho U.S.S. Company. '• It was I • . stated m another communication, from k;-,; 'the-. Oceanic thati it-was de-- ■ . isirable' to .iwait an interview,between, : : Mr.' .Samuels, :* its, manager: and , Sir' Jas. Mills, of ( the He !f-.v..-.'..V0n1d...:hk0. to 'see 'the - correspondence: . i ...:. : that had passed; also the correspondence L.? : v between- the New- Zealand Government ■ f. and tke U.S.S. Co. prior to, the makmg of • the proposed arrangement. Ei■■:■■■ r,.; -Mr. / Davoy: .What did Mr. Gunson aay about Sir Jas Mills? - Mr.-- Massey: He told Mr. .Samuels ■ that Sir Jas. ..Mills-.,was; not tho Pre- ■ v --I jmer.vof' New Zealand, though / anyone ,- fi-. " .would., imagine ho was by j tlio position • lie took up. Continuing '.his',- remarks, ,:Mt . Mas'soy ;j . said that ?. . ■ ter not from,, an-, Auckland i. point of : v . ripw, f but from the - point; of, view of, ;■ / : the Dominion:. Ho was not. raising • - the. question whother the/ iwrfc of call '■ shouldi be Auckland or Wellington.'. v: ; Will Spreckels' Service be 'Reinstated? . : • So far as:he was he would J v!'. :■ prefer to. see our. mails, curried ,iin our. i own, steamersi-if.: by. way • San Francisco But when New Zea- 1 . jland had to. choose. between, a so-called >j ~• 1 mail. service which "would occupy -22 1 days and one -for -17 days, it-seemed 'to ■' . him it .would be m tho interest of the: '< . ■ Dominion to take tho latter. -Appar- ' ently; : bv- the. arrangement; .made ■ with - 1 the. TJ.S.S., Company;',it--wouldbermpos- ■ ' :«ble.to enter into an arrangement for tho Teinstatement/of;.the - "old- service/' itn- v '';less< Sir^7as.'^Mi]]s."d&'';f; Mr. Samuels on the'other'hand hap- '. r -pened 'to come' - a'- muiual Va'rrani je- '• , . nient.;To t his rnind, tho old scrvico Ja'; (.was'^the.;best.,service . , land'liad over"had The,. Hon: T. Mackenzie:'lt was no good, for trade.'.. .. ' ■ &:■. :^ r - -Massey: I was speaking of it as ■ ;» mail■ service. ■If it'w'as'no good'for ,; don't.;thmk';that ;the"new:rseiH: r - : . . -.^ith',.its ■ wretchedly, slowboats,' L i : . .irill De any. better. 'v •. , Tho Hon. T. Mackenzie: They - would ■ ; ,'.,inake no difference : 'to thQ;trado/ : Mr. Massey went on to .say that ~ , : there was not the slightest doubt but ' ■. ./Vthat .the. steamers rof :tho.- oTd/service •went away from Auckland full to the .. hatches; but he. would admit-that all . v : "the cargo.did not,come from New Zea,v/ , land.: It; would bo -better ..to. pay £2000 per tnp for a- good i sernce' than £1660 ■: ' for an inferior one, -as tho diftei'onco ' 5 : might possibly be made ,up in postages . The people of the South Island were satisfied for the 'partj.-but the • ("th» North - Island " were ; not. ■ r,;,,,- Sufhcient publicity had not been given i,;,',:to- .the, .negotiations, - and tbo contract j,: ,;, should not- have been signed t prior to ; yv,: :®bo House being given an - opportunity v ,of'.expressing, an- opinion' thereon. i'v.v -. State-owned .Ferry.. Service -Urged. Mr. T. E. Taylor (Chnstchurch ■:.v: ;Korth) ,said the. Union " Steam,..- Ship- > ; was.be coming :soi. powerful .as to render competition impossible. Ho hoped tho proposal in last year's Budget , to make the ferry service' between Lyt..telton and. Wellington a ('State enterpnso would not be lost sight of. Even ■Y'.-'sj .-.when 'the railway- reached , Picton he .thought--.-the..-:ferry- to,; Lyttolton would ./ bo_ the quickest, service.Ho did not think tho frenzy shown/.in Auckland v v .over. the offer ot', the: Oceanic Company , was, not justified. -"'What weason-J could' ' 'there bo for .delayin'giv'negqtiatibnsr'in ' , favour of the: Spreckel^. Company. Their :aervice.was unsatisfactory,'.and, besides,!' v if., the American: shipping; laws . had practically throttled'.our t-raido 'with Hono- ■; ~ ; lulu. •At the'-samo time,=he recognised t^^jtliat^the; • that' .. ." had .been mado' with thc.;tj±iiori •; Steam. Ship Company was. not satisfactory. , People would not tolerate tlie class of boats that were' to. be run during the: next : twelve months. .VOiir''objective Vshould be to obtain a service' ffi/;:and develop trade with' Canada" and as' • ' many islands of the "Pacific; as, possible. ~ :- i:'Ho was,opposed to allowing the P.-and ft^r-o.''isteaniers''comihg^tq',afere.;bM^traae, . ' : .unless . that company was • prepared to . • ' conform' to the standard'; r we ; : . - high enough rfor- Britishf'-seagoing • men. -New/.Zealand should demand the same. • .right; to; arrange its ...shipsing' laws in ' ',accordar.ce; witir its national. ideals,. as ;',v; ~ .Canada jpossessedv'•• If.. Parliament could ■; ; ',t s .vi';h6tl deali'.with tbe'difficulty.-the: working'- . classes themsolves. would ";lind a, way of ■ dealing with it. •. Seamen and- wharflabourers would take the 1 matter in' their own hands after -a' reasonable time -Sr;;liad:felapsed, ,if hot take action Lascar Crews not Wanted. /MS; Mr. Wilford (Hutt);; discussed' tlio .. . ;question of Lascar; labour. - The lost ■ , Shipping Confercneo was influenced by :v ?:- the- views of Sir Jas. - Mackay;' a itpiosentative of tho; Indian Qffice, who said £ '"that 1 -it would ;be' impossible/to alter -the; -existing:- schemo.'' .It was- later found' . that ho owned. 12,000 shares m the 8.1. 5"?, ./Company, i'lvhichomployed-' Lascar/labour. Any law. to stop ■ Lascar labwould first have to 1 bo approved by tho Home • Government, which it was very unlikely to do.'' Now Zealand arid Aust 'tralia could make it not worth the 'j. .while of vessels employing Lascar lab--our to' trade-Jin' :these waters. ■ The Minister should bring down a .re- 1 v;-- ': 1 .: solution on tho subject for transmission with a similar resolution, from Australia to tho Home Country, in order that . the people at; Home might see .the .'sen-, timent which existed here.. If, over. tlio colonies became parted from Great • , /Britain, which ho would -not like to - liappon, they could pass,.# law on the • subject for the protection'of New Zealand and Australia. . ' Mr. Malcolm: We would not have a chance to make laws for-loug.: (Laugh- '■■■ ter.) ' Mr. Wilford: I am not suggesting . that that should take place. ' Resuming, Mr. Wilford said: that ho ■.: /;,/ hoped ■ that Messrs. '-Spreckels would never get another agreement: under ,/ /'. -which'....th'ej would -not be required to give any undertaking • Mr. Massey:.AVho>jwsfe'the Postmas- .; tcr-General 'then?;' ■ Mr. Wilford: we had' to get the serjjee.

Proceeding, Mr. Wilford said that tho. old service was not at all satisfactory. Mr. Poole: Yes, at the beginning. Mr. Wilford: Why at-times it was like tho; Mississippi steamboat: about . which.it was : r'elated that as, soon as tho wliistlo' was'-blbwn, the ■ engines went out. ■ Continuing, Mr. . Wilford said that ■ tho..whole; trouble .was, about tho port of;.call;>:if ,'{t; tyere not for-.that point thore' , woiild' ! l)'o no ' dissension. The Prime; Minister should start and negotiate /with Canada and Australia to arrango that;; tho' -vessols in their: present -service 'should call-' -at' There would bb no in arranging a diversion from the point of view ofdistance, > There -was' .no- question.) but that w6 sfiould encourage tho Vancouver service. . Defect In the Suez Service. "Mr. Ilerdman ■ (W'ellington -North) said tlio: question of-..the .emplbyment: of Lascar crows' was. of- vast - importance., It was, however, premature to say what tie Government should.do.in. the matter. New Zealand had. passed a Coastwise'"Bill ..'which'-/placed v New; Zealand, trade ; in : the .same. 'position'; as / the American Government placed trade goingv'to AiDonca. Tiiore; was also a preferential tariff here : which operated' against:.some. American goods ; coming,; into this country, "In. regard, to . mail servicesi ,he did/not think the question, should: be considered from ' an Auek-" land or a Wellington standpoint, but frbm '.tie the. interests of the colony as a whole. Ho .was opposed to . lavish .exponditurejon any, new ihail ser-, vice. •' The population. or. the •; trade of thb .country id not/.warrant; it. present mail: service via, Suez met the business; ;wants, at any rate tlie wants of he:believed,. Christ/-; chiirch 'and Diinedm:... He .believed _that what wo wanted at.'- the. .present; junc-, ture was,'a ,regular service. ;/ Speed was hot of so much importanco to tho or- : dina'ry maai or the ordinary morchant., .What they wanted was 'regularity i'-'Z (Hear, 'hear Tbere i-was ■ ; omy. .one /weakness.;' the.: Suez service- aid/that' was that ; the, mail (,arrived.,in' Sydney,'after coming overland from Adelaide, two d4ys before it 'waa'sent on to -Auciilajid.- .-In: i his ~ 'bpinion', a'.. l bbat" should .';mebt''. : .:tlie l ; mail -on" its arrivad /at Sydney. 5 He ; was /inclined ,'tb think the Prime-rMin-ister -was not/altogether sympathetieto, '■the-; Suez/ serricgf/ : ; Thb;;;best?distisbu- '; tion oould ;be;- made' from/ W 7 'e]liiigton, . :but hSs'did'iibt';min'd , 'if' ; it" was, Auckland ; if tliat' was-the; better point.".'Of course: somo"communication, should.' bb .'maintained/ between ' tho Unite'd 'States;; jlike-.-: wise i with sVancouver;. There was ■ a cer.tain /'aniouht of trade to bo ■ ; and -that'might,, be increased. / The Go'vern-- : ment' -might . do something to " further ' improve" the Vancouver .service and the -service iwihich leaves ;Wellington;'for Ta- ■ hiti! BntV;it' r was .the' Suez vtiail : which . given"; thoyinqst 'wttentiori;'' , ,All the : /bversea'.:.mail :,semces to;, ■be unsatisfactory at. present.^''He would • ',likei:tfo' ; !, .House ivhether .he had entered- into' any : J I arrangement- • witii the/.Union-. • • Steam , iShit): Company, !.or, ; any,: other; company'.to" ; , ;te'; : 'ex^diW;th4( ; ,ciiTying'','of; : : the ' mails ; oii ' te' New ■ ' Zealand 1 after ' their amyal;in Sydney. ••/••• -■ All-Red Service should Come ;First.' • Mr.; Poole' (Auckland declared fthit-for.a'long'time. tho old 'Frisco ser- . /?ice'''gaVe; great; satisfaction:;/ With /the; disappearance: of; the old service;^,the ; .'U..§;S:''CompanyJ'had-,further"shoTra'it?, ■ .mtei^se';-:b^' - reifipJ6j^;'jV.th^t'{'fi^_' steamers; 1 }n,the, ?,acific.;); If, it continued ; ;to : do/well- he jfr'buld not f be-iurprised vif, ' 1 the -'American. ;hbats' 'were; ousted for; all' time;'\ f -/Thb; bringing' 'or 1 ihe'-sVancbuver;; :';semce, ! liiJ'jte«;a; , jwgh':staod^/;ian3 l ?J3io;; now- 'Frisco ' service - had brought. ' an- ;- The /'House ' should nb^y',,' support ? tho.' ;!All-Ited' : route and stand ! by New-Zea-land interests; .'5As reg'ards. the -'U.S.Si; < .Company,- h'e'-.wbilld' oiie - 1 of 'the ,best, in tte. worid.: 1 / ing was, it, that ono of its .vessels 'carried'\ wool ; fact that, other steamers in competition were paying only. Home rates, of wages: : .There was .a lot of opposition to .Bill:,• in. the m.-.United: , States , because it''was' felt';that, : itiwoiild-'' be helping mUhonairoE(; 'among / whom were tne Spreokels.'-Ho-hoped that,the :negotiations :i for ia service with' Auckland as a, port of. call wouldbe successful. ,' Jf 'the :Spreckels. ,Com-i , pany -had theimvay the Pacific, would he kept-'clear for eight months so,that : they' ;;might lijiusiuess „; '.with .; New Zealand.K'/He.'thought that.itiwas ; well -that!anothoE service . had -"been: ; ■ into -a very good , service.. - Auckland, was the most natural port'of .entry :for. all trade from..the Pacific. Coast. H 'New.'Zealandii.were: prepared :to.,subsidise -the ''Newf ,-Zealand.'- companies they ■ should'-'bo* prepared., to'consider N(?w. Zealand . before Austr'alia. , in 'con-'' nection with the'/Vancouver./: service. With an . All-Bed route., sorvico. thoro was a demand .for coal stores, refitting, .etc.j';^in^Ne^vy/Zealand.ln ;-'tne^'caseVor' "other! spent/ih; Australia.: He;was anxious to. see both a 'Frisco'/attd an All-Red I 'route estabr lished ..permanently, butt: tho ,-'.latter should -get first, consideration, although the 'former /was; the: most .natural^inail' ■ seryice'i--'j,;\ If satisfac-. ■ Tory . service, . they should , receive an adequate subsidy. ■; - Not Satlsfiod with New 'Frisco Servlpo. ",I;'iipprbach 'this matter,' ",ih- a' per-, fectly calm, manner," 'Mr;; Myers '(Auek-'.' larid'j'Jia'Bt) present«' Suez 'geryice took', 37;.23,,; days irbm' ! Lond6ii to Auckldnd, :i . aiid '38;19, days to Wellington, aiid.from Auckland to London 36.32 .'days,V;ahd lington ■ to. London .36:50..: days. Some: members, were labouring apprehension when they, said. the old ; 'Frisli6;servibb' was' unsatisfactory: pThe: dissatisfactibn. 'only arpse -during . / its' later days'.,/ .The, new/service :that ,was, *to^/-be' enteredupon';:would.''-not; bej'satife factory:'''; fib doubted if' it'was,.-worth the... "'money. it ; ; would - ' cost. . . TJiere, was, too,/a reasonable'prospect of-' ar-; ranging' a : service with• Vancouver.-';He was not prepared to' say.-lie/would ,vote; against. the h# servicoj • :would::be a.,lever, and ,might to' make better terms with the Oceanic; Company 'than • wo would otherwise.' He commended, to the attention/of''the; Postmaster-Goneral that more satisfactory arrangbmbnts should be made, foiv a-,-boat .to: wait for the boat/via 'Suez'.; A better, steamer should alsb be piit 'on': ' to, brino. the mails from Sydney to New Zealand. /.!-;■ ; -'/,f.^- ! //';/''': M llio' Hon: T. Mackenzie said the new 'Frisco service was not costing a great deal of money, and, was at the samb ■ time extending commerce trade as well as' giving a good mail service. , The Spreckels Company had- only entered the field , when a locally-owned' company, stepped,. . in, and' extended .their', trade ..over //-a 1 field which had not bo worked for some time.' . Speed,,was not so/niuch essential .as regularity.■'■'•/He'..^proceeded:',toapplaud tlie Union Company—a service Vrhifch belpnged'to this /country'.'/ Mr. Buchanan : "Noc a bit of it." ' Mr,: Mackenzie wont-on to say that a great deal of the money in this company was not hold. in'New;.;.Zealand., ■What wasVinore important;, than "the money was that wo were, establishing a nation of sailors in supporting tho Union Company,. which 'was one'of tho best manned and best, equipped services ■ in the world. We had been given an ■■ opportunity; of extending the 'Borvico for £12,600. In view of the whole ciri cumstances, from a trade point of view, and from a'moil service point of view, j the Government had taken tho right I course in the,; service tliey had pro- ' vided: ,:'■ /: - . ' ... - : ■ ■' .. 1 Views of Other Members. Mr. Buchanan (Wairarapa) declared that the development of New", Zealand ■ owed much to the Union Steam Ship ..Comoans, But tfhat would happen.

whon tho Union Steam SJiip Company dovcloped a littlo further? . As regards tlie New Zealand Shipping Company it was controlled from London. Sir'Joscpli Ward: I thought that the, directorate was in London? Mr. Buchanan: A secondary directorate. • . v. 1 , , . Continuing, Mr. Buchanan said it was, true that a • number of,' shares in 1 the Union Steam Ship Company wero held in New' 1 Zealand, but. how.,'.much .control had the New Zoaland shareholders? In' view of tho fact that Parliament was m session ho was surprised that Parliament had not been consulted with reference', to tho new 'Frisco, service. ■ Sir Joosph: You. "don't argue '.that way when you want £1.0,000 spent on double-decked sheep cars. Mr. Buchanan: Oh yes:rdo;<: Continuing, Mr. Buchanan- said ' it had been pointed put.'by Eome.?jno.;that Sir Jas.« Mills was not Premier "of-New Zealand:. Ho would add "and neither was Mr. Gunson." Auckland should remember that it had no right to'',presume to' bo .tho arbiters in connection with, the" oversea-'mail' services. : ' ; ,/• . Mr. Myers: Wo never said so. ;v- ---' Mr. Buchanan (continuing) said that the 'Spreckels boats would require; to be rofittbd,- lock, stock,. and barrel. He' did . the,''time when the Spreckels boats• were satisfactory. .As regards the question 0f... tho manning of boats> trading ito New' Zealand he; wished', to say. .that ho was opposed to; coloured , crews. >••• The .'Frisco 1 < service would give New Zealand advantages; the Suez' service could be greatly improved : but .the. main .'service for New Zealand''should be'' the' All Red 'service , which ought to bo established as soon as possible. 7 . ,'Mri ;A.' ; E. v Glover (Auckland Central) complained; of the, disparity .in .the sub-: sidles-' granted; the Union Company for. tho Island .' service .from Auckland, and' Wellington; J "Hie /bbafa.irom AucklandC .'carried on a much large amoiint of ,! cargo than tho boats . from: Wellington. He believed, there 'was."some sort, of , a compact between'Spreckels- 'and; -the. lUruon; Company. ■ ■ ;/. Mr. ; Hemes (Taurariga) took 'the'epr portunity of urging that there, should ,;be;'no room left for doubt;- that'Raror 'tonga fruit would.firidjrooin iri-.the boats engaged in tho Rarotonga-Tahiti service../; This ;.beeh-acute •some time ago, but .JwaVnoi stf ;had, how. ■ (Another' matter .was..'the'- question• of the; difference' of . freights ,to ' the' Cook 'islands and to Taliiti. '/.'/lie .'freight to? .the: Cook- Islaids was,\ 40s:, land .to;. Ta-.; -hiti ; 355.: . ,He did not . thinkit .'.was; i right: that there 'should.' be a difference' of ,55..-in favour .of/the French posses-, sion in tho new. contract. '. • Premier In Reply. , . ; , , The Prime Minister, said lie, fully that , the ■ Auckland . ' members . were .ehdeavoiiring to": do ,their duty by ; their'city.' They did not,, however,'; know the full circumstances. He had ,'in .'.his . possession l - letters : from -, the '..Oceanic Company'which; -unfortunately, ;' he could not . publish as : they were mark- ' i'ed:private.;- '.The position, was' that,'.the, ■ Oceanic • Company was not offering / a service, '.but was only,''suggesting -.'possibilities in/connection :.with; a' . service, after the, arrangement had. been, made; with ;tho .Union; Compafly. ; :He was not ■ .going -to', act as .'.(this.; /self-constituted' - ; interfering Auckland 'Chamber; of Commerce wantfxl to. .The Oceanic Company merely wanted -an-' offer from 'the 'New -Zealand. Gov.erninentv..;tp,' .enable. : : theinLto 7 obtain .assistancev,. from tho '.Govorhment beyond -what , ■ thatvGovernment;.proposed,/to'.pay ;if they got- an. offer- from;. New .' Zealand they might spend £150,000 ; .on two Steamers,'' provided they got' a' contract -from,. New Zealand.. and a higher subsidy from tho Washington;. Government : than.they hAdireceivedr'l^foreW/In'.Te--.'' gard' t'o'-.the letters; referred'to, lie would, have preferred that they 'had mot been .marked private. , _ iQ, Mr. "Ma ssey ■:' It's, very improper■'; for /th.e. Prime . Minister' to receive 'such',"let-; iters.;,'- : : -/.' : ;VV ; !l v' ; "' : ".■/:/.■'. . .'Sir ' Joseph Ward:;' Doyou suggest that there is 'anything wrong in marking a letter private. '■ /•,,'/v/ ;/"; '" r Mr. Massey: , I suggest to the; Prime' Minister' that that letter- should be: public,property. /-' Sir Joseph Ward: Do you . suggest ■that .I .can control -a. person who .wishes. ;to! put'"private" on"a letter? •Mr.' Massey:, I .do nothing - of'. the sort. ' ,/■:;.:.</ '.'C'.; : '"/.v:;'; ; [''.Sir : Joseph-Ward:;, It ;is -a,' yery;:'new;fahgled .idea. of ;eth'ics. if you . say: that .'letters 1 marked private should .be treaty, ed as public. - . ■: . An hon. member:'Do the'letters, go,, on the fdo?. '■'".-'.fV;/..//.';;/. ; What the Oceanlo Co., Want. ; ■. "Sir Joseph'''Ward':"''"Tliey; remain on record marked..'private.' There is.no-. •thing: in' them i,that could not bo made .'public.-':' Sir Joseph/addedthat, the Oceanic Company wanted - a subsidy of, £35,000. a year, ; and a- long service. As far'as he' was concerned, while ho had a respoct for the members of Chamber ,'of Commerce, he was' not going to let. them ' run' ' away with .tho idea'that /they;could;put/theiroar.' in; aiid attempt." toi': govern' this country.; in., the matter of mail services,, (Ministorial- hears.) If tliey did so they/■ ■ woiila: make , a huge .'mist'ako.' (Hear, hear.). ,:The Auckland. Cliamber ; of Commerce could do •'' whatever ;it ; liked, but it .could not dp that. .11 had eveb. "gone the 'length 'of communicating., with '-other . Chambers of : Commerce, and: one. of ..them had, communir • 'cated: with him, . urging him to; accept ,tho. Oceanic Company's offer,' - when, tliey had not got an offer from. the Oceanic Company at'all. -■Mr. Massey: What about, tlie £35,000 a year? .'' . • , • \ . Sir Joseph Ward:-I"say 'we' have not got' that. ;They, asked:-us.to make:-the : offer.. .'Does :the hon. gentleman not; see the difference?"' :(Laughter.) > Wa] 'have not p,ot an offer from-them at all.. The. Auckland . Chamber of; Commerce: wanted the Government, to cancel;one business-like arrangement for a' problematical orio that might eventuate i, in : eight months,.' and 'they .called that business,' but lie (Sir: .' Joseph .Ward) called it; colossal stupidityTliat',/.he: added; is what'l call, it-.' .It is simply ludicrous "in . the extreme. At a lator stkgo .Sir Joseph Ward''characterised the course ' which tho Auckland ' chamber wished him to take as an exceedingly 'stupid one.- .-; .7' : . ■'■'" . { iMore About the Auckland Chamber, of " Commerce. V There was "a suggestion from Auckland also that the Island, service running to Wellington should bo cancelled.', It was only right in tho interests of the residents of the, south' 'of- the.- North' Island and the South Island that it' should be continued. 'Auckland was acting inVa. yery; selfish; manner. • ■ He ■was not talking about tho wholo "of--1 ithe people;"of Auckland ;; 1 , he' believed tluyt the- sentiment on the question -in Auckland generally was sound. The : .Government would,do what, was fair, to Auckland, without the interference of .}.hn Chamber of Commerce. Mr.' Poland: Wlio are tbo inombers of the Auckland Chamber of,, Com-, 'lncreo? Don't . take . any ' noticeof .them. > ■■, ■■ 1 , ;Sir Joseph:_ Well, they have got : hold .of the; press in Auckland,, and ,are circulating interviews which" do'.'not put ..the"position fairly.;-' '.' Continuing, Sir' Joseph said that the Chamber had also got hold of the Auckland members, and wired them to vote against the Island and another service. < ■ ' .. ". Mr.-T.' JS. Taylor: The wires wore marked, private. ; . : . , ', Sii" Joseph : The one I was shown was not. • • ■ ". _; ' ' • A member: Mine was. : : ' Jb'. Brown: Tho president is '' a young man without much experience. .(Laughter.) ' Sir Joseph: I am speaking imperson--1%.-. "

llesuining, Sir Joseph said that tlie old 'Frisco service was discontinued because it had lost heavily—to the extest of. £300,000 or £400,000.' Ho would admit that tho old 'Frisco service was'the quickest, that New Zealand had had, also that it was satisfactory. lor most of tho timo. He felt, however, that they could gwt one' equally as fast via Canada. Coloured Labour Problem. ' .As . regards ' coloured labour, the Prime Minister said ho -fully recognised; tho necessity i'or protecting our own people. He denied that the Canadian .-authorities could prevent vessels carrying /Lascars going to their ports, and we could not do so either without the sanction of the ' -British Parliament. Tho Lascars were under the British flag, and tho situation was a difficult one, and had been discussed at the Imperial .Conference. .He' thought it should .bo brought up by whoever .represented New Zealand at the next Imperial Conference, and strong representations should bo made to the Old/ Country ;to'' insist that the great shipping company which'.'it subsidised to run.; to other countries, not to qurs, .'should'bring white crows to our ,shores. He ; did not think, however, that the j .British Parliament, would- agree, to any .inhabitant, of tho , Empire being .kept jout of any portion of tbo ■ British Empire. ;As: the'outcome of our inability, to.ob'--tarn .the Vancouver service i;he arrangement was_ made ■ and, the whole of the commercial men of the'country jivwe well satisfied. .'/They were, not satisfied/with the connection at Sydlioy , with the Suez mail. , Sometimes the Wellington- boat, missed' the mail by .a day/and: a half or, two' days; and sometimes the Auckland / boat .missed •it'.by/i.a day., and/a. half.. The whole, ;poiiit.::was whether, we -were willing to pay the . considerable sum' which .would ";be required .to, have these steamers held ' back. He had not been prepared to.pay .tljis sum because he had looked forward:'to getting a Vancouver service. ■'The; country,.missed the- chance before .because the House would• hot ■confiriii the agreement he made .with tho : .Canadian-, Government. The; arrange-, •ment-with, thb, Union ' ; Company had been inade;for a year, and for that.time, advisedly because we must know:how -the Vancouver service was '..to. fare. Wo were : not .going to pay for two Pacific services at the. same .time.: In the event .'of: getting one satisfactory ,Pacific.servico we would have to: con.sider the" question of Island trade .for' . which 'there :was .considerable" necessity.', We ought'to' have:our own steamers running from-..New' Zealand; .to . "San .Francisco.. 'Wo /could get over the American. shipping, laws., by ; leaving put Honolulu .and .touching at .Fiji. the advent of- oil as fuel,' oil could be . stored;"at' Fiji. . '/ ' '. ; New Zealand Control Neccssary. Wo wanted to control our own lino absolutely.; -Up to', thb present wo had 'never;, done so. /.The..San Francisco, ser- ■ ;vicb ■ drew;. subsidies;; from- /thifeo Governinbnts and drow all its' Stores from Australia. Wo wanted to have steamers which would draw. :their stores fromthis country and, which would ,provide; . refrigerated spaco for tho carnago of ,our ...produce.,-; By" way 'of - indication" that: there:; would; be a ■ market': for: our 'frbzen'/nieat ;in : ;imericaV Sir .Joseph. Ward stated that the -Union Company had ;refused a full 'shipment from; Syd-; nej'.tp Sail. Francisco by' the new;ser'vice,/ aid 'suggested to tho' purchasers 'that: theyl should make inquiries'; for.. meat in Now Zealand. !/;'"'; ,/ r/'' Mr. Massey Rebukes the Prime. //■Minister. .- ! /', ':■'; Referring later: in: the ; evening to tho '.vessels -the Union/Company 'purposes to employ in,the now.service; Mr'.;Massey' said they . wero obsolete and oldfashioned. Ho .felt / tbo;, .of proud that-New-,,Zealand's;mails/were: to /be carried; in such vessels. :.,':As;.j a Now 'Zealan'der ho -was .proud . of; the. Union Company, but we rhad : care that instead of the .Dominion, rmi-. niiig the. Union; Company, .the-'Unioh Company did not run the DomiiiioiU Ho ih'ad, noticed in . connection with 'certain, documents the name of a Mr: Wright. It,:'was., a. remarkable thing, 'that!;this, gentleman was always to boifound 'on /things that were profitablo. ,"'-Mr'.-Mas--sey conoluded iby reminding Sir, Joseph. Ward that he, , with the speaker, had been; the guest of the , Auckland; Chamber. of Commerce, who ! had'.l-treated them; as gentlemen... That '..evening-, ithe' Prime. Minister'liad seeii fit-' to "speak of what he termed the "colossal'stupidity"- of- members of the Chamber. These words /had been used 'by the Right; Hon. the Prime Ministor, P. 0., LL.D. -They were worthy of: Chesterfield,'/and /would 1 be 1 quoted ;over and; over/again as having ■ been; made respectablb' /' by him. -~ .. '.\ ; ~':/;/ /Vv': ■'■/"'.:' .•.■:-'i r QUALITY OF STEAMERS. IN ISLAND AND COASTAL TRADE.' (ByTelegraph.—Special-}.Correspondent.) . .. Auckland, September 23., . ; . The/Union Company',s reply ..to : SIrV. Giinso'n, as,..to the,, quality- of- the; Islands /and coastal steamers /now running, may be .summarised' as follows: — " The hurricane in March destroyed tho Fiji l bananas, and the Navua lor three months ran' at a/loss . of i over £3000. The,company then placed the .Moura in; /the'trado,; and,, -although .her expenses' are much, lighter than: the Nayua's,',a/ loss of;£1600 has been,made: ' As .re-' gards Moura is-fully up to requirements, while her- accommodation: is'quite,equal to the number of pass'en-; ,gers travelling.at this time of!the year.; It is intended to; 'withdraw- the Msura as trade improves, which, the company; believe, will be. in the courso or- ■ a i month .or .two. Witii regard 'to liie Squall, only very occasionally has,cargo been shut out. With regard to the Ilaiirotb; and :Tarawcra, the company's manager' states that ,'tho' passenger, trade to and from Auckland, on both i; the East and West Coast, has been, 1 ' gravely affected by the, opening of the .North '.Trunk line. ,; It was . anticipated /that the • railway connection : between;: Auckland and , Wellington Would affect the coastal steam services, but this, has happened to a much greater , extent , than' was oxpected. Tho falling-off -in the passenger trade to and from Auckland in 1909, .as compared with 1908, amounted to no .less than ,£37;500. Tho railway passenger rates were' incroascd at'the beginning of this year, and it was hoped that this might, benefit the. steamers, 1 but tho , railway / more than' holds, its. own. In view of. the" very; serious'falling-off of revenue it /was' ..found necessary, -during the/: winter months .at any rate; to employ , smaller steamers,, and (says the manager),."l would point out that for ,tho last six ■ months,, tho. passenger accommodation of the Hauroto and Tarawera has been' largely in excess of requirements, less than 30 per cent of the accommodation' being occupied.: Indeed, the only exception: on the rate between . Auckland and Dunedin is ■ the 'GisborneNapior section, where, when tlio Gis•borne Harbour improves, it is the intention to place a local ferry service. My directors, before whom your telegram was placed, instruct mo to assuro you that the company greatly values their Auckland' connection, and .welcomes any reasonable suggestions frpni your Chamber.'' ' Mr.. Gunson, is too busy 'to.'.make an immediate reply. •He told a reporter that, in, the meantime lib would content himself with stating that ho appreciated tho company's statement contained in the last, paragraph, and lio saw no reason why a good understanding should not be arrived at on this question.