THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 689, 14 December 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

: PUBI,IJ&y WORKS-AMENDMENT BILL/ tHe^Eonse , ;met yesterday, afternoon the stamp Act Amendment- Bill was' introduced by governors Message.- '■.'.■ - -..' ■■■-:■ The.PRIME lIINISTER. .stated .that the -6oecb of tne •Bill,, was' to- impose a tax-of 1\ per :ont.;on,thq receipts-of race meetings,; and a ax or 10s. on the issue of bani'nqtee.- ' •- : -■ Mr:■■■Massey"-.asked..TKether'the/proposed tax )f.2J. per cent.-would apply to all receipts of •acmg clubs. :: . \ ;,< ■ - •-..' ■.-■-■ Sir Josepli.Ward: Yes, I Baid so in. the Budget, ..and that members .understood Mr, Massey: Well, , somo-'of tho cliibs do 'not lelieve it- , .-,- , : :.-■'■"■.■'- : ■■ '. : ■': : ;--';:-'-'V: . I.Sir Joseph Ward:' They have not told'lrie so. Air. .Hemes ' asked-whether;' payments as itakes, which were , hot actually^receipts;,- inasnuch as they: did: not benefit-,tho clubs/ , -Would )e:subject:to the'.tax. . ,■"■ >: .-. ■■■■. Sir Joseph Ward said thatMt/wasnot proposed to wx.stakes. ..';;;..■• ...;/■ ■In;.reply..to- Mr.: Davoy,. the .Prime; Minister iaid, : he would see .later, about introducing : a RacingsClubs;Bill.';- ; ■'■•■■;■; . :., : •, ■;> ■.■;,■ ■■_ ■.?:; ; :'.ln: reply; to ' Mr.' JlasseyV Sir. Joseph said' he neant to introduce an.amendment .to the Gaming ! Act, and , he-intended to put it, through :his ; session. .■■■ . •'■■■■■ ■ . ; ■'■:■■. . ■ ... ' - : ~ ■ Mr. -MASSET ;.said- he was .glad of "that, beause,he desired an opportunity to vbte against the-ipresent arrangement compelling race to license bookmakers. He'thought it' was most jbjeetionablo .that 'the' State- should ■'■■■ derive fßvenue from the licensing of bookmakers ■ << Sir Joseph Ward: Well, you will have : the jpportiinitr.'you ■ want, .and at' , ;the .same time rou will, have an opportunity of knocking the iotalisator.'o.ut.-.rintend to introduce legislation also ,to stop, galloTray. and' pony .racing. The hon. gentleman will have-an opportunity sf recording his vote so far as the bookmakers iro. concerned. '> The bookmakers ana, tdtalisators go , hand in hand. ' ' " .' :'Mr..Massey:.l am hot.afraid to ;record ins , rote. ;.'.'/.•■";". .- '. " '. ; . ■■../ ■"■. •••':•;• ; ■ The 'Bjll was read a first time and the" second reading, set down .for,the. following day.- : 'i :■ ; ; PUBLIC WORKS BILL. : : The Public- Works' Amendment ; Bill was also introduced' by; Governor's Jlcssage aid road; a first; timo, tho second reading being fiisd-for next.sitting:day:v .'.-. ~' .::... .. ,;■..■■:...■ ■, •■■■; 'it •: -FRIENDLY ' SOC IEtIES B1 Ll.. \S' \< "■ '.. ,Iri, the ~eyening :■ the Friendly- Societies -Bill was deaH; within Committed. . : . - i '■■'■■'■'■;':;■ , Clause 15, providing that an actuary should certify-contributions'.beforo;registration, was struck out;on tho Prime Ministir's mqtion..vA.'new; sub-clause'was added to Clause 40, on the Prime 'Minister's ; motion, to provide that either'the annual Tetiirn of ; a society or branch,,; or- a balance-sheet, or other: duly audited .document -giving equivalent information.ishould be suppliedon application. '. ■".■'-.■ : > ■ ■ " In':plause 48,;; which-provides' that,on ; the death of;a trustee the Eegisbar may. authorise the .transfer .of funds, to existing .trustees, the following addition was made , at • the instancb the .Prime Minister: "Or in the case of a , branch which, has ceased to exist into the nam«sof : the existing trustees of the society of which the branch-formed parti'-'-'. ■ ~';'■. .. ;Tho Bill, consisting'of 109 clauses and three schedules, was disposed of in Committee in less than4o ininilte3. ■ ' .. , .;' ■•..'■ -',-"•.' The third , reading .of the BUI was agreed to without discussion, and the Bill passed. . .: ;' JAOVANCES iBlLl;;': ; : (On the ■motion'.for ithe;third.reading of the State Guaranteed:Advances:Bill,. ',■::, , ■ "Mr. , ALLEN,(Bruce) eipreesed' strong ,donbt< whether' tho" limitations on the. amount of. local "bodies"'loans'.under Part II of the Loans 'to Local' Bodies Act /were removed by the present Bill.- -It seemed tbhim, in>;view of Clause 71, which"ejtatos that loans shall bo "subject tc the ; . liko , limitations of amountvus are: prescribed",by the old Act, that .the.limitations were, not removed, i'.'.' ''. ■ ■'■ ■'-. . :•' ; ; '■"'■Mr.-,NEWMAN.'(Manawatu) said;ho'supposec 'that the Government would still claim to be ;the friends of the country settlers, though thej had :just brought down;a Bill ■ by whicP thej had ceased to contribute to tho cost of-.tht roadiug - of the back ■ country. • In the , :- past • ii had beoln recognised that , ..the Governmeni should to/ the cost .of the work oi settlement, because .the whole . comiiiunitj derived . 'from the : prosperity- '•". anc development of. the country.; . Mr.. : Newmai said ho held, spontaneous -resolutions"- froir half .a dozen- local .bodies in his idistriet. pfo testing, against: , this amendment: of the" law One of them stated that it would sooner -haw the-old Loans to 'Local Bodies Act,,'cvch ■'•w'itl "a- , higher-rate; of. interest..: Hβ. felt confiden! that almost "every- local body-.in"New' Zoalanc woud'endorse^the v^aws.of ■ tho protestj'ne re solutions 'which ■'■•■he 'held.'. , .'•■'•'.• •■' '•' ■ '. • Mr. MASSET said-it waa"doubtfnl : whethei

local bodies would, be able to borrow mo: under this Bill; .and. there'was-no "doubt thi their loaus would cost them a muoh hichi rate. ■ '• ■'■ ■ ■■-■■■ ■■-,'■. .. -■ ■-. ~ . .'M/'r BUCHANAN "(Wairarapa) 'was confidei that the. local bodies were better aware i tlieir requirements .than the Government: -Tv counts- councils in his district. had protest against the; repeal, of Part •II of the Loci Bodies Loans-Act. There was no doubt thi local bodies would pay more for their loai under the new measure. •.."■■. . ,Mr v MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty); whi agreeing that the old system'had worked vei satisfactorily, thought that the new Bill wou] prove-beneficial. v . .'■'.' •■■'■-. .The-PItlStE MINISTER expressed astonisl ment at tho attitude taken up by the' Oppi sition 'speakers. ■■ He- had uever. attached inuc importance to : their .■advocacy of economy an reduced 1 borrowins,'and he had just been eive practical, confirmation of his unbelief. Th new' system: would ensure' the local bodies niuoli greater, and more valuable means of ol taining ■ money at the sanie rato as the connlr Paul for it, and ' chb ■" Opposition wanted ■ t revert to a-system which, meant. 10,55." Th average amount lent to public bodies since tb former Apt was passed had been .£IOB,OOO year. This year the. .£2oo,ooo.borrowed' for loai ,to local bodies was exhausted. Out of tha amount ,£187,000 was gone eight weeks as( leaving only' £13,000 for the whole of th local bodies of the Dominion.' The countr would pay'for the whole of the discount 0 the .loans. .'•■-.". '."■'." ■■''■• "'Mr. Massey:,There may' bo 110 . disconnl That, depends on the.rate. ; '' . - The Prime Minister: No reference. had bee made to the vote of .£250,000."f0r roads. :Mr. .Massey: That is,for opening up Crow: lands. '.'. -■'. ■■.'•''". .■■■■■'. . . ■•■ , The Prime Minister: There are places wher it is not;for' opening up' Crown lands." -.' 'Mr. Massey: What you are'repealing is 2 times hotter than the backblocks vote. ■;The".Prime-Minister ■ said that at thepre sent moment'advances to settlers' were bein applied for to-the amount of .£12,000 a dayor'four inillion pounds'a year. -.The'Goven ment had ; always been • the" friend of- the se! tiers.. ' The new- Bill strengthened the .syster of'local bodies'loaus; from, the financial stand point.: He was.advised. that Clause'7l wa all-right, and he was taking the responsibilit, for it.; :If this Bill had not been introduce) ho \rauld have, proposed to alter the amonn of loans under the Loans to Local Bodioa Ac so-as to make the system pay its way. He did not agree with the alteration to th Bill in regard to : sinking funds, and he \va not:. going uto agree-.to it." He had agreed-ti the Bill,going .on because he wanted to s«e i placed'on: the. Statute-book in the interests 0 the'.settlers and local: bodies: . If the-systen of"private- conTmissibners ■ was : -established a aga'inst the Public Trustee'certain members 0 public bodies .could '. oblige their friends b; letting,'thein'..have the- accumulated sinkinj funds.'-as" against';loans on their, lands. '■.Thi, ha i d-.bMn ; "done..in the.past, and ,he was.no going'to be. a'paity- to its being done :ii future.'■'. '.'.... 1 ;..;.'.,.- ... ■■■■. ■ . ■.- ■'Mr. ..Fraser:.; Was V there.: one -case'-of." ba< security? t'. '~: '•■ ■.'-.','.'.. :...'. .;< • ; Minister: I don't say thererwas but I:' know .what goes' on. The. Governmen was.entitle'd. to ask-local bodies to invest thei: sihkiiig funds in undoubted securities, and hi would -ask..the .House to have that .done. Thi clause, which had been"struck out was an im portant part' of, a' :well-oonsideredv":measure Later 'on, he.would'ask .the -House to recon sider the-matter.- r ■■'■■~■ ...'.'"■■■' '. The third .Teadirig ! was agreed to, and -th< Bill passed,';at'9,2o p.m. ,-' ';' ~"■ .-.-■•: ■ DEFENCE BILL. ■ ; THE SECOND READING DEBATE. ." ■TKo PRIME MINISTER, in moving the sec-ond-reading of the-Internal Defence T3ill, said he Kad -never, been able to-see his way to gc to■the :, .fuirextent' of a-system pi compulsorj tfiiining.-'..The.-'total , 'expenditure for the firsl year-.under' the Bill wpuldvbe ■ a; against' '.£202,000, • which; was the cost of tht preseilt.'system: , - If.'every -man' iiVthe. countrj had-been'asked'to-tak'e-up arttis,thb.'cost,'for 0 forceof,lGO.OOO; men;, would have been'Sl,oSo;oo{ Domin-ion-could..bear.'.'While.hp, did not- agree thai the'volunteer system had fallen into decay, he admitted that to a' Very' large extent •it had broken down, and was : nqt,"now able-, to. meet the legitimate' requirements of .the .'country, and an': alteration .in'the system-was essential. In 1009 the.volunteer force'totalled 21,550, as compared with 18,888 in.1908. -One'of the difficulties'in ..regard to the Volunteer system was thai it was.:next:to impossible tp'gof anything like continuity ] of. attendance j. in two years' time the. ; membershipY.o£ th'e..'forcoi had' very greatly changed, and- this was a source' .of .weakness. Ten.' years * ago • tho" volunteer system . was held in very 1 , much.;highe'r 'esteem' than-Tit-.was , now.

Standardised Empire! System!' .: '"'. ■ Th'q;object of-'the Bill was' to; improve" the rtiolo'system; of Volunteering in New-Zealand. U.-the Military-Conference which ho attended n.-Engiand the:'right of, the dominions to-do rhatevor they'thought' proper in'tho way, of lefonoo was ■recognised.. It was agreed, , howiyer, .that the. forces should; bo. standardised ifter the. model-,of' the■ new British system, fho idea . was , to. .organise these forces; so that ;hoy might readily bo bound into one homogonenjs .'system,if that.was found'necessary. Tho [mpcrial 'authorities would: not" have power to lall on this country, to.i send men , abroad. The ;btal . number?qf men whom ; tho'Chief , of the jenoral Staff in-England considered, necessary 'or .a, highly-trained ■ forco in .Now. Zealand vas 30,000./ Under this Bill the Council of Defence, would .'bo reduced- to threo nien; The deal- conditions- of tho Dominion: would be rery much .better mot by a small council. The fiermanent force would-,be reorganised, and a ;erritorial force'created, which ■ would, consist )f a coastal defence and garrison force, andalso i mobile dofencb force' in each district. The diolo volunteer force would be reorganised upon [mperial,.methods, -which' had been determined on at the conference held .in England. It was not intended to take the actual funds or'private property,:of any corps, and'no.corps would:'be prevented from acquiring private property-in future; V The system followed ; when the British folunteers'.' wero converted into Territorials iTould'bq followed as a guide with regard to the':.transformation- of the -system. ". Three shillings' a day '-and free 'rations' andi ammunitions would-be. paid to.men while;they were.iri camp. Uniforms would be provided.: only for certain sections. It:.would ; take twelve- months or a louple' of ; years .before;-the: machinery , , of ■'. so jreat: an organisation .could be expected to work nnoothly, ; and,..to Eomeiextent,experience of tho actual working of the. system .would be needed before" , they.could.-say, in detail what it would ba. best:to d 0., . :.','] '-,'.. :.''. ' ■ •!. - : ,'. .''•.' ■-. Some Figures.. •.:;,,!.' _.-■,'- ■.. '"., ".Tho number.of males available for obligatory training was ; as follows':—Twelve'years to'- , U years; 18,437; 11 years to 18 years/ 38,142;- 18 years to 21 years, : 31,022;< total, 1 87,601; Probably one-fifth- of these would' come within ■ the category of physically, unfit. 'Then they must add the - number of -Territbrials • who voluntarily enlisted above the age of 21. They woiild probably '-hare 10,000 to-50,000' under; tho compulsory: clauses. - That included : the • ages. from 12' to 21 years.;'.:",' ■'.'■:•'.'■ •'■ '.'.:':■'. '. : ••. 'Mr. .Taylor: vEIOOO-ayear. for wages .only. '-.The 'Prime Minister : said that- there would be,''a;, further reduction on.-account of consciqntious or - religious objection's.-' After tho second.year it was expected, that, 9000 a year would pass, into the reserve. ,: ' ■ . i .It had ; been objected that the'training proposed under the Bill was too 6hort, but on entering'the .Territorial section a young man would bo. no recruit': Power was also to 'be sriven ■.to,-,, establish arms and , ammunition' factories should it'be found necessary. At present it was not contemplated to do either; :the present supply -being, considered satisfactory, l'enaltios were imposed for- evading: training and other ■ offences, and -,' those who. did '.' not comply with certain prorisions were not to be piuplpyed by. the Government. It was very difficult .to devise satisfactory penalties. Provisions were contained, dealing with. employers who prevented , their men from undergoing training. The periods of training would be, chosen s6-.;as to dislocate cbmmprcial and business interests as little as possible. A great deal of tact and discretion would,-require to be used in 'administering.---the'"'system. ■ -At present: it was ;not intended to appoint a. commandant, and -.'. he.- would ask' :the House ' to oniit Clause • 14,-,-which defined- • tho ' Commandant's duties. The Territorials'would recoivc aninllowance of ■'£] per annum '■ for maintdnan'co, ..wjth';' freoV uniform ■•■ arid equipment, payment! for; attendance at ,camp and certain daylight parades, , , and,' an increased supply of ammunition. Provision was made for tlu inclusion .of boy scouts, without ago limit, who would be under tho Minister for ,-Educa-tion.-A very. elfectiyo -.reserve i force'' should be built up-under-the scheme, which- could be used as an expeditionary forco if required The Bill provided for a limited cbmpulsorj training; and he. thought that all aspects o] the .problom had :;been dealt with withoui going to extremes. ■:. ' .■'■?'■ '■ -. ,'i- '■ ■'■'" ■■"■-,•:. •-. ,' ■•'■ ■ .-'.' ■■ :?:■:.-.-. -Not-a Party; Question..- •.:'.■.■ v>■'...-'. ■ The matter-was. too impQrtant .to ,be treatet as:a party. question.' In the next'ton : ycavs they Should;have,6o,ooo 0r.70,000 men in thi resbrve: forces alone. The ■ rifle..;.clubs ahc mounted would 'be continued. A sys torn : of ■ naval volunteors would' also ■. bo :cstab : -lished.- '■■■T.hb: proposals, wore vas effectivo ■ a; the Govornmont; could make .'them. on . a rea■sqiiably'oconomio basis, "Without oncourngini A ;jing6istic-spirit,- they: Bhpuld provide.,something better than:.the-.present' system, whicl had served■.Uβ:time.■-. '~ ■ i -.- ■•-■•• -■•, ■■

Mr. ALI/UN (Bruce) -raid--he' had never treated tho defence question from a party point of View, and it ho pointed out what lie bohoved to bo its failings, it,was only'in order that they might bo able to make tho Bill a more perfect measure iu committee. Ho agreed that. , tho; time had come when they must have a change of system. The new life winch the Prime Minister had indicated was appearing in the volunteer system was, ho believed,. very largely tho result of what was coining. Tho main sentiment of the memorandum with regard to Imperial military defence was that the dominions should be prepared not only for their own defence, but to send a force away from their shores if necessary: He regretted that the Prime Minister liad not definitely staled that tho physical-training of schoolboys was to begin at an earlier .age Jhan. twelve years. Ho did not know whether they would get sufficient volunteers to mnko up the 20,000 men which, no presumed, the Prime Minister thought would bo a proper force to send away The expeditionary force, he agreed, could only bo on a volunteer basis. TV proposals in the Bill, except that they; did not begin at <o early an age, were on very much the same lines as had been advocated bv Messrs Khodes and Fisher and himself during the short session. He thought that the inspection even of the youngest cadets should bo by the Defence Department, not by the Education Department, A Warning from Canada. - ..The-proposal for a territorial system after ™e age of 21 did not commend itself to him If .sufficient men over 21 did not volunteer for this force men were to be balloted in whftvwere between tho ages of 18 and 21. If, as ho expected, there wore not sufficient volunteers to tortn the Territorial force, the training' division between 18'..and 21 years would-be practically depleted . by the baUoting-in process, lho system of drying, to work a volunteer tern alongside , of a compulsory one was pronded for by law in Canada, and he did not think it. had worked very satisfactorily. Mr. Allen read a, lettor which ho had received in answer to inquiries from an oflicer in Toronto, Canada, to the following effect:— "I'never heard of a ballot being taken in Canada. Our Act might mislead onovory easily. ' Originally our militia law was virtually service, and there is yet power to bring it into effect on the Governor-in-Council declaring a levo en masse. This is really a dead-letter clause, and as a wh6le lot of our Militia Act comes into force with this,-it is most misleading to anyone outside of the country. AVe are no model to copy, but an excellent model of what you .might, pray God that your country should shun. • For a mere political machine it,is all right, but for a serious defence force it is a howling farce." . Continuing, Mr. Allen . said he was sntirely in accord; • with the project if an Imperial General Staff, and regretted that the Prime Minister had not taken them more into his confidence on that , matter. Parliament ivas in the dark as to what tho Imperial proposals in that respect were, and he did not think that 1 was right.- Ho'had objected to tho proposals-to appoint an Inspector-General and x Commandant, and he-was glad that the ;lause referring, to .'a Commaudant was to bo :iit out. The two officers' would certainly have been opposed;- He did 'not see the , object of i Finance member on the' Council of Defence. The sooner, the Council was wiped out and something.more efficient and less expensive put ni.ta place the better.' It -would be preferable :o have a General Staff officer hero,-who would Jβ interchangeable with the Home : Country. The cost of tho scheme which ho advocated, last :ossion was much more than the Primo Minister's scheme, and he believed it mild be .better if, instead of'the Territorial orco, they continued the training scheme, up ■O 30-years of age,.and asked the men to.come rat for six.>hole days'.: parades in the field •very year.. . '. ..,:,- Mr. Hogg Opposes Militarism, Mr. HOGG .(Mastertoii) thought th"e report >f tho .debate would have the , same effect on is readers as "The Englishman's Home" had ipon him. When-the people of New-Zealand :ame' to contemplate the Bill, they would icarcely admire it. It was at any rate too mportant. to-be rushed through Parliament; iVould it induce prosperity, or was it not inilined to.lead to'.tho.towns boingpainted red? ;rom what he could see the, tendency was to ionvert.. the. Doin.inion into an armed camp, other'provisions there was one for a it person •in the ■ shape of a finance expert, to ook after-the shekels:if there were, any. It vould appear that any reservists who died in;estate. were to be sold by auction to pav ixpon'ses. .(Laughter.) ■ . ■'..'■ The Bill does not affect members if _', ' ' ■■ ■ '

iMT.,;.HoRg,; .They.nro always;ready, to sharo their brothers':blood. . After this Bill,'if war arose, they should, bo put in the foreground. He .would .like to ask whatkind of encourage■ment had rifle clubs and; volunteers had from the Stato for years past. ' Legitimate sport fought to-.bo encouraged, but ho had l always been ; opposed.: to , militarism. involved ,loss>f time, labour, money, and blood* •and ,thq' worker liad to pay the great proportion of tho,burden: If ho were a yonngman ,he would sooner. lenvo the country or go to Eaol.bcforo.he-.would suffer degradation of,his own rights, as.was proposed under tho Bill. In ,Ins opinion, ..the measure was treason against tho liberties: , of the people. . ■ ' : Mr. Dillon: Thank, God you are not in Germany.' : ', •■.•;■'.'■•-'■ ',■■'■■■•'■■ ■.. Mr. .Hogg went on to say that the people of this..country want: bread, not gunpowder. ,'Ho declared that.he was in favour of a fleet, but.would,- to the: best of his ability, oppose any standing, army, whidh: was the height of extravagance and nonsense. . •. . ■ -.

■Welcomed From a Moral Aspect. '* ■ ■■■ Mr. G.' Hi THOMSON (Dunedin) said that he welcomed the Bill thoroughly. He did not do 'so from a .military point'of-view, but from the moral aspect. It would bring home to the young men: that they' had a : moral obligation to protect the people and the country. Mr. Wilford: There are too many exceptions in- tho Bill.. '•'■•: '■■-■: '■ ■"■ • -~ ;Mr; Thomson replied' that that might be the case. Without such- a Bill a largo majority'of tho young peoplo would not bo touched by 'the splendid agency to which it sougnt to give prominence. ' Ho hoped that the. Act wonld recognise the - work that had been, done by the volunteers in tho past. Tho second .generation in this country' fell short' of _ tho pioneers in .---keenness for hard work and .Showed a lamentable lack of reverence for-authority. If the Bill became law, it would go a,long way to stamp out larrikinism. In tho matter, of discipline, there should be no nnlk-and-ivater policy., . ■ Mr., Malcolm Applauds the. Bill. Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) thought members should not forget all that Mr M'Nab had done In , . Ue W S,?' of' educating ■ the people on the subject. , .The.penalty. , for-lack- of preparedness was mnch greater than the-sacrifice involved in defending the country. He had no sympathy with the man.whogained all the advantages of belonging to the British Empire but refused to take his. part in the of defence, •-The recommendations ; in connection. with the General Staff were worth the: visit Home of the Prime Minister; recently. What was wanted was more men who would enthuse the younger officers. ■ The Dominion : could not afford to grudge, money for the establishment of a canable General.Staff. Under the proposed scheme ho hoped, that mounted men would not in anv way be overlooked. . He trusted also that the boys in the, primary schools-would be trained in ■ miniature rifle shooting. Volunteers were best pleased when they were required to do most. He was pleased to note that the women were ; eTihcmg a . keen in the proposale. : The Bill should be amended 60 as to provide that no liquor at all ehonld be allowed to be taken-into a.camp. If the officers were in earnest they could easily ; tind the offenders in that regard. In administering the Bill the character, the habits, and the tastes of the men should be considered. .- : . . ■• Mr. Wilford: They should make • yon Minister of habits- (Laughter.) . . ■■■. Criticism, by Mr. Fisher.,, '■'Mr. FISHER (Wellington Central) declared that a large amount ot information on the subject of importance ta members and the country, had not been : given. He would like to congratulate the Prime Minister on hie rapid conversion to compulsory training, for obly last session he had staled that if a compulsory schemo were submitted to the people it. would be torn to ribbons. Much more might have been done .under the existing system, but it had been'murdered partly by maladministration and partly'• by political iiifiiience. As a result of the introduction of the measure, there would be. a better type of New Zealanilor.. He,thought that good would accrue if the final cousideratioiv of the Bill 1 vcro-deferred., until next year. If the Bill were adopted, tho cost to the Dominion of defence—nnval and military—would be at least -. £595,685 .'<per annum for the next three ! 'years,' and \CiUS,OBS for each: of the . succeed-■ I I ing twelve years. He doubted whether-the proposal could bo put into operation owing to financial reasons. It would be a wise thing if ' all' -the ... existing < commissions were cancelled. It was 'his opinion that ono-third of '.tho■ officers woro inefficient-because they j.Trere''loft.alone,after they had:passed ,c certain examination. . ~ ■'.' : . ' ' . Mr.. Massey"Approves the Principle. ■ . ! Jir.' MASSKY said';tlint lie wl n'shpnorter' 1 of;,tbj_.priMiiiie of- tlw Bill.'lt was to--hei

regrottod that *tho defence system had to be strengthened so soon after the depression. If the. system were, more like the Swiss system he W()uld like it better—for Now Zealand would Kot ii force of over 85,000 for an annual expenditure of ,£330,000. Judging by results the bwiss system, was about as perfect as it was possible tu get.it. Only one day was required for mobilising the infantry and two days for mobilising the, artillery.. lie laid a great deal of stress on tho training of cadets. . .Mr. Wilford: Even of boy scouts. • Mr. Massey: Yes, even of boy' scouts. ...' \ Resuming, Mr. Massey advised, the Prime ;Mmister to mnke baste slowly. If tho poople were asked to do too much within the next few months there might be. a reversion which' would puf back Iho reform of the land detenco system for year's. He was convinced that sooner or later .trouble would come, and the only way to bo prepared to meet it was to go in for a-thoroughly efficient system of land defonce. Mr. Wilford's Views. .' \- V " Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) regretted- than any remarks had been made on the beliefs of Quakers. He took exception to the suggestion by Mr/ ,Malcolm to.start a system in caiops to set class against class. If men of bad habits were included'tho camps would be tho making of them. Any attempt at classification of that kind . would wreck the; vkolo scheme.' :. Thero must not be a.cuff and collar brigade against the workers, or tents rath axminster'carpets for a special class. He had had considerable experience of volunteering, and had messed and camped with men of' all classes, and did not think .that he was any the worse for it. In 1903 ho had seen the Swjss soldiers,'!and he-was by the unique • physical .characteristics of the footmen. Of tho Swiss horses and cavalry .the less said tho better. • The pattern for foot-soldiers was to be found in Switzerland, and for catalry in Italy. Hβ wished to know why the constables should not be trained." They would form ;tbe nucleus of a small unit of an army to, bo constituted under this scheme. Every possible encouragement'• should be given to rifle cluhs, • which ho was glad to see were continued under the Bill. With regard to naval defence, he objected to the creation of a "baby! , navy, and preferred the payment of a subsidy towards the upkeep of tho Imperial Navy. Quick mobilisation was the main point to bo considered in the land defence scheme. : . '/Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) said he had made no reflection on Quakers. .' Ho did- not wish to set class against' class, but merely lo ; give, an opportunity to -members' of the force to choose, what company they would join. '•■• Opinions of the Labour Member.* Mr.;M'LAREN (Wellington East) said that tho combined expenditure;for naval and military "defence would be at/least .£002,000. The great burden:of expenditure for defence that was on the ; shoulders. of : the people in!-Eng-land should.be a cause of concern to < all. They had to look at the defence problem in its-relation to tho economic'conditions'-.of.tho •people. Ho would be sorry, to see race hatred inculcated.: into the miuds of children. He disliked tho idea of ..compulsory' training, and thought that * the ■ best kind of patriotism was brought out by' inducement- and education, not by force. There was not very much wrong with the morale of the British-colonial.' •Hβ.would liko the Prime Minister to ■ tell the House whether the -, question of limitation of arruamonts was considered at the Defence Conference. .' . ; . Sir Joseph Ward in Roply, , The PRIME MINISTER (in reply) said the canteen system was originally inserted with the distinct intention of restricting abuses. He could not answer tho question.as to whether the-limitation.of-armaments was discussed ■. at the Defence Conference. As the reorganisation and, reinforcement, of the defence system were necessary, he could not agree to' let the Bill stand over till next session.. He. had never been,in favour of .-any System of conscription, ; tho initial-cost of winch wouUL have:been over a million pounds. With regard to--concentra-tion of the men, the'proposalwasto have;a permanent training ground in each island close to the main .trunk railway. 'There was no reason.why in ten or fifteen years thero should .not-be'.'-100,000 t0'"250,000' men"with "sufficient training, to. assist materially in.the defence of ;ihis.country. :, ...'• .;.-.,.. ■ At 2.5 n'.m. the second reading , was agreed'to. , The House, then. roso. ! :'.''■ ■'■■:'-