IMPREST SUPPLY BILL.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 680, 3 December 1909, Page 5

IMPREST SUPPLY BILL.

" -INFORMATION'WANTED. b ?In the evening ; 'an- Imprest > Supply- Bill for-' £494,000. was:brought down.: '■■:: ,'.-,' .:>.-"■'. ,',' i :' ,To the motion to ■ go: 'into .- Committee .of j Mr. SEDDOfc. (Westland) moved an amend-i. ment' that an ; ; afternoon'' should be set-j aside; ! to. discuss , the position -of the timber, industry'. r : ■ The amendment .was rejected by 31 votes to' 26.-.-■■•■"■■■-■-■■ ■'■' ' -- - ■ ■■;•:'■■■ :-■■" '■ -.'-'■ Mr. JIASSEY said he/would like to ask the Prime 'Minister whether prior , to bringing , down"' tho ■'defence proposals, or passing 'tho Dreadnought Bill, he would lay, before Parliament a summary-of the results'of the recent' Imperial Defence Conference. Some .time ago a..summary of tho results, so 1 far as Australia was concerned,, had been placed before tho. Commonwealth Parliament. ; From reports to; hand,-it would appear, that.''several questions of jnterise. importance to the colonies, of .which the people of New Zealand hnd hot even had a' hint, were discussed .at.-the conference. The information with reference to the." conference in" the Financial-Statement was of very little value: . Then: again, ho'wished- to, know when the Public Works ; Statement would-be brought down. ■ The House knew absolutely nothing about what was' going on'in connection with public expenditure. Already, eight months of the financial year had elapsed. Then, as regards the recent inquiry'into'alleged irregularities in the Land and Income Tax Department, .everybody outside the, House seemed.to think that' 'something was wrong, but what I did , Parliament know?' In touching upon the subject the Prime Minister had stated that as. a'result-of the inquiry.legal 'proceedings might ensue. If there were to-be one or more court iCases, and; the ■ House were' informed to that effect, he would have nothing more to say, but-if there were, to be no'court cases, then Parliament had a right to know. what had taken place, and to nave the report of-the judges'placed before it before the end of tho session. Hβ -proposed, toask for it before the Estimates relating to the Department were passed. . Whether' the: House would have tomeet again after Christmas-he could not say. - ,-.

-The Taxing Proposals. -'• ■■■■' Members' should ■ have' had before now . full particulars with respectjtb the.new taxing pro•.posals.. In. keeping, the Bills on the subject back, the Government' was not treating the House •' fairly. .Again, , no member had this session had an . opportunity to , - move a single motion:which he had put on-the.Order Paper. Sufficient- time- had , not been given to discuss replies to , questions. '• The reportof the Timber Commission, which • had cost thousands 'of pounds, was apparently now considered of. so little importance that the' House had.been refused a proper ■ opportunity to discuss ■ the evidence or report. '.Perhaps it would -be found that the report on the police force and the report on Native affairs would' share a similar fate. ' s The Opposition -had ,: this: session been, particularly, reasonable, and had assisted the Government in connection with' the, business, but the" line mnst be drawn "somewhere. Hβ was not'asking for any confidential, information.•'...-

THE ;PRIME . MINISTER'S ;P;ROGRAMME, : The FBIME. MINISTIJE;said-he had-never known the ;Public Works': Statement brought down before the Consolidated Estimates were dealt.with.' . ; '•'■■ "'■ .;, -' '■':. ■'■~ ' .'.;'

Mr. Massey: Why not deal with the Consoli-; dated' Estimates? ■ ''.■ :' . ■■ '' • The Prime Minister said that they >would go on.with ■ the Estimates the Mowing afternoon and evening. .Ministers would be able to give all 'possible information regarding their:- Departments','and the House; should be able to put them through; in a .reasonable time-with-out rushing them. Before the defence proposals were considered he would .lay! on the table all tho'.-information in"hisipowerv. That would bo; done the next day, :'if ..possible,..- or on' Satnr-' day; or at latest 'on. Monday.-.He hoped to introduce" tho ordinary Deferico Bill on Friday. ;■ The Bill - was partly a ,; consolidating measure,, and it would have. been ; introduced that evening if, by an- inadvertence, tho 'newJ clauses had riot been left unmarked. ,The summary, of the results- of tho .Defence. Conference would bo similar to. those laid, on.'the table'.' of 6ther' Parliaments, 'oxcept 'in''-' its special application to Now Zealand.' The Home Government. ,hnd., suggested >to/the Governor whnt-portions of the business of the conference/ 'should be' laid before. the' House." The fact- that/eight 'months of .the financial- , year had - passed should bo taken l ;in r qorijunctioh with the information as to public works which he '..had .placed on record/in the; short session; Land and Income Tax'-lnqulpy;'. ''■}.:. : ; -With, regard to; the inquiry' into.the administration of the Land and- Income Tax. "Depkrt-ment.it,was-aiffictut to;givp-.eft'eot"at"present toVMr. fMassoyV-suggestion..//'Che respoilsibilitv deyolvod:on: tne'-aouM/head of.the '-'Oepdri--I.twji*'in4i?JSi^*^a4nau''.liraagi { :'up ■au^Jw

the inquiry. It was for this officer to decide what stops should bo taken,'and he.had to act on legal'.advice. Ho (tho Prime Minister) as Minister in charge of tho Department was not interfering as to the proceedings that might or might not bo taken. That was entirely a matter for the executive o'fficer'tb' deal with.' The acting head of. the Department, who was a gentleman sworn to secrecy, would go into .any matters he thought necessary and 'advise the Government'. The' judges' report could not possibly bo laid before tho House because it contained names and references to-private matters.. , .'..- ■ : A'membcr: .Wo don't want names. )■•'■. Tho Prime. Minister said the report could not be laid oi) the table'because'he could not give away confidences. It was suggested that names and figures should bo left out, but- the roport would then be useless! If a coherent outline of the proceedings was to be given, tho nanies might just as well bo included. ■ If information was to be given with regard to these private affairs, it would bo good-bye to the confidence which tho public had in the Department.. If trouble should arise in regard to the inquiry, the onus of dealing with it was on the' Executive, and-if there was anv dishonesty or anything wrong the responsibility was'on the Executive to do their duty in the matter. To lay the report on the table -with the names, deleted, would be useless, because the judges referred distinctly to the evidence, even in the summing up, and it had to bo read in conjunction with the evidence. The matter was one of very great importance, and the Government could be depended on to. do what was right in the matter. It was not possible for him to say what court'case might or might not take place; that was a matter entirely for the legal gentlemen who advised the Department, and not for the Government at all. . The only taxation, proposals in, the Budget on which legislation was reqnired were with -regard to the Dreadnought, and the teration in the land and income tax. The latter could, stand over if necessary till next year, because the amount of taxation pronosed in it did not begin' until March 31. Ho did: not think that these matters would occupy any, protracted time. He denied that any Bills were kept back'by tho Government.: L Aln opportunity would'be given to' discuss ' the Timber Commission's report and the police thport. . ■••■'■■■.

: SPEECH BY MR.- HERDMAN. ' •■ Mr. .HERDMAN, (Wellington North). denied that he had. wasted timo by speaking on his Public.Service:Bill. W.hcn a Bill was brought forward that was unpalatable to the Government, they.exercised all their; ingenuity,, and brought .to bear all the powers of the Standing Orders, to oppose ' it. That there was a feeling .of -> unrest in the country-, could not bo gainsaid. The people were- saying- that the Government was bringing down one Land Bill one day and another Land-Bill another day. Then again, there was the trouble on the Weet Coast, for which he did not-hold tlio' : Government responsible. 'Would the Government show backbone in connection with the matter ? It would be ',6eeri that ,;the? Government' had departed from, its original; intention when it established the mines. In order to evade the law-the.men had.just'cancelled ; their registration. But what Was the,position of an employer in New Zea~ land? Whether he'belonged to on association or .not he was at like mercy of the law. There should not be a 'law : under which .one . party could \be punished, and the other party could escape: ptmishm'ent. ,:. . . ."

Discussion of Reports, ' ■ :•. Would tho ..Prime' 'Minister v .give ...the House an opportunity of. discussing, the Aldington -report, ■ the ■ report ;on /the police ."[force;■•"■.the -.-report".- , on "'the .'alleged" irregularities in connection with the Land and Income Tax Department, and the present state generally of the Public Service ? With regard to the Land and Income Tax Department nobody, knew anything, though" there wore,.rumours everywhere. .They only ..knew that the allegations;-ofirregularities were' of snoh a grave - nature that'-, an inquiry .by two /judges was considered: necessary. The public-had; a right'.to'know what was taking .place.' The names .might be concealed'and private" trans- , actions covered up, but, they" wanted to know, what;had* taken place to.cause the. Government •' to take such . an- exhaordinary.. step astoi order the. investigation, of the.•administration by two judges.- : The Commissioner of Taxes, might bo perfectly blameless for ■: all members' knew.-,/.TJie. judges spoke'.of his.high capacity,' his competence as' a"n administrator, and his skill.-., In justice to Mr. Heyes, the facts: of the inquiry should be made known.'/

MR. LAU.RENSON IN REPLY. I',", 'Mr/. ''LATiEENSbN ''Ml Her'dman of only stating one-'sid* of the-case* in"jUs- criticisms .of the. Government; quoted:'tho :inc'reased"revenue, of; 'the and, Post: and. Telegraph \Departments; , .as a' ■ setroff ng&inst. 'taxation. liAftei-' referring' to the "land-grabber and' land monopolist,".•w'ho.he said were-the curse _..oL- the! country,' Mr..',Laurenson said,..- "One; thing we 1 intend • to' do is' to ..tax *these gentlemen ? until•' we. make,them:relax.tli?ir ; 'gr.asp oii , ''th.e, v lands| of this country'.". '"". ~* ''■' '•'''" ■■'■'■■. ~

VIEWS OFMR.HERRIES;

-.-. Mr; "HEBRIES (Tauranga). quoted fig'tiros .''to;; show that whereas' the" net earnings of, the! railways in Now Zealand had stood 'still,'.the-' not earnings of the railways in. tho Australian l : States' hud gone ahead ,by,.leaps, and' bounds.' Tho cost per/mile,for construction had steadily'.' increased in New Zealand "and decreased, 'inAustralin," with the "exception '6f..^New r \S6uth"; Wales,.wherethe.increase-was notso marked' as in this country. .Government and 'Opposi-j tiou should'combine! to see that the* national: assets Svero made as reproductive as possible. .'

I; ■ MR. MIULAR- ON; THE .RAILWAYS.' '■;,[.{ ; The Hon. J, A. MILLAR said that'.since 1895 the railways-had been workiug on the 3 per cent, policy, and whenever the earnings.. had> been'pver 3J per cent, great reductions ; had been made] There, had been reductions !6n almost every-item'since 1895. It had <beeii ; stated. , that the New South Wales railways earned Bs. per -cent;, and those' of .New Zealand only ~£3 • 35." Bd. In New South Wales there we're long sections which could be kept under one adrainistratiorij - : and there" was not the same necessity, for district!managers as in Nep Zealand. The New South "Wales railways, moreover, were-fed by , the railways of ■ Queensland, Victoria, and the other' States.,' They could , draw on a pond; lation of four aud a half millions, in addition' to the trade-ef the back country, iln New Zealand the-railway system: had to ; be out, up ; into ten'- sections. ' -It was,, disconnected, ' and required separate management for every section, so that a fair comparison with Australia could not be made. Yet, if he liked to adopt the system of-tho-New'South Wales and Victorian Conimissioners, he could make the.rail:' ways of this country pay 5 per cent. 1 For car l ' riago of sheep , per truck,of 60 sheen per 100 'Iniles the charge was 50s; in New Zealand,'63s. 4d.' in ~ New ■ South:'," Wales,. and 7ls'. 3d.-' in , : >yictoria., -That .was , .; 21s.' 3d. more "-.in.- Victoria,: and 13s. '4d. more in New South_Wales than, in New Zeas land. In , ! this > bountry in 1908-9 there 'were, carried 5,211i480'< sheep, -which, at '60 sheep per truck, required 868,581' trucks. . If the New : South Wales rate had been charged for sheep alone ■ it : 'would. have, meant an .increase- of .£57,989 in earnings, and if the Victorian - rate had been charged an increase of jE92,284. i By adopting the 'lower; charge, that of New South Wales; for the carriage of sheep alone, he could, have made Ss. per cent on .629,0(10,'and by adopting the.Higher rate 6s. per cent. By an increase on one item he could bring the railway earnings up from X 3 ss. to JE3 lls: per cent; Mr. Millar also quoted figures to show that .passenger fares' were higher in New. South'Wales and victoria than in New Zealand. In" New South .Wales during the last two years 41,200,000 '. of borrowed. money bad been used, for rolling stock. : 'Last year the amount , ■< was ,£832,000, as against taken out of revenue. : The amount of -borrowed money used for rolling- stock; in New Zealand last year was ,£315.000, and that was one of the largest years. ■ The 'working expenses in New South. Wales had'increased by .£237,985 last year,.as i against, au increase. of £84,000; in revenue, ffi New Zealand adopted the same: scales as were in'force 'in New South;. Wales -the- net earnings ,, here'-could-easily be-brought upto the , net earnings there. 'It was all nonsense for anyone :to say that the labour' legislation and Arbitration- , Court - had crippled industry in .New, Zealand. ■' If the New. South Wales Government 'paid its railway employees- at tho. same rates as wore paid m New Zealand their -wages-bill for the year would .be .in-' creased-by 4295,051), equal to Bs.: per cent, on the capital-cost."" Under , Government control and, wfth a Ministerial head any railway sys : tern, could be run, on' just as good- business line's as;-under, commissioners.', He' intended on a future ■ occasion to place on record the whole of'tho reductions which had been made' since, the. l commissioners relinquished control of the railways. .'_ ■'•.-"•' . ',■•■ .-•.;: .:

Mr.■ Herries:'There have.been;no reductions during the past : five years. -■. •" ■:.'.:... Mr. "Millar: "I' adniit - that'there'have'boen only.: one. , or' two.- - - ■ . '.■,■, _ '.-, •' Resuming, ;Mr.,Millar declared that it. was impossible under, present conditions .to; nin tilings cheaper,' /owing.to' the/increase,in-.th'o' cost ■• of .-'coal, •eto..'-' - : - - : .. ;.. /■•'

.''■ Jfr."'Allorii\\Vhy.is .there;.an : increase, in;the cost /of;'i#ni ?'.'. .;;.-,• I.'-;' , .- '.■'.'.•/■■••'■."', -■-.-,'■■

■ 'Mr'.."Slillart- Owing to,tlie ,i.norease in wages! Ho/adrfea/that.'if.was Mtunliicely -that Mhw thl)'-'strike- at v Newcn'eUe ( was over ■ the' prioet-Of coal' • '

MR. MASSEY'S,SPEECH. . . Mr. MASSEY. pointed out that from the point of view of capital'invested the Eailway Departmeut was the most important of tho State services;. Ho would like to know what opportunity members got to properly discuss"'its administration. Was it not a fact that the engine-drivers ->and firemen were paid less in New Zealand than in Australia? '.-■•.'■ ■' Mr.■' Millar: That is the only, class. Mr. MaEsey (continuing) said-.'that -it was true sheep were carried cheaper in New: Zealand than in the other States. But what about other items? Tho average price in regard to class E (agricultural produce) over 100 miles was as under: New.South Wales, 7s. 6d.; Victoria, 95.; South Australia, Bs. 9d.; New Zealand, 9s.' 8d! The two systems in Australasia which paid worst were, those of New Zealand and Tasmania which were under political control. If tho Prime Minister,desired to get the Estimates with.reference to the Land and Income Tax Department through he. would tell him frankly it would be necessary for him/to place before Parliament somo reasonable information with regard to tho difficulties that.had occurred in'that Department. 'The fact that the people were flocking from the country into , tne towns was not due to any land monopoly. As a matter of fact the greatest land monopolists in the country were - the Government who had locked up nine millions in sham endowments. '--Until the optional system was ' applied to. those lands they would 'not be taken up. When the opportunity arrived lie would test members on the question. If the present Government were in office till next olection it would bring down a proposal similar to thati to which ho had just given utterance;. Mr. Massey then quoted figures to show that the' exports from industries to which the Arbitration' Act did not apply had increased in.a much larger ratio than exports from industries 'to. which it did apDly., They were. as. under:— -. ' '■■■" -•■ .. i- :;; .'■ Under the "Act. . • ->'■.■■■ "■ ,' 1898. 1908. ... ■■ ■■-.■■ •'■• •• ' :'. ' "■"'* £ ■■"■ & Manufactured articles ..„;.... 253,805 572,327 ■■' ' Not Under the Act. '■■ ■ ■ . .1898.,,' 1908; ■ '.-■ . :"' ' ■ ■-. ■ ■•■ ■■■. ■-£ ■■ " :.■-£■■■■■ Butter and cheeee ~.-.;.».».-...'559,«6 1,854,601' Frozen 'meat .....„..„..„.. 1,698,750 3,188,515 Wool ...'. ....;...... 4,645,801 5,532,881 ■Mr. Massey said that.it followed.that the Arbitration Act had had absolutely- nothing to do. in bringing about ■■ the prosperity :.of this country. . ' '■■' ' ■ •' ■ . . ■ ■■■ ..- ■ ■'•

OTHER SPEECHES. . i ■,, ■'■"■., Mr.:WEIGHT OVeUington South) 'spoke' on the questions of volunteer liquor canteens, which he urged should be abolished under, the new Bil], and the Brooklyn School.' .' ' •■ 'The PRIME MINISTER, . referring to the Brooklyn School, reproached. Mr. Wright for preaching economy and'.demanding expenditure. . ' ".'»,.: '-..■ '"■'.■ : ; ■ Mr. HERRIES (Taurariga) .thought some:attempt should be madcto dev.olop the suburban, traflic, 'now-that some of the railway: lines wero .being'doubled.' '.' ;. . '•■■- , ' -, -^ Mr. FIELD (Otaki) thought .thq Prime ster should tell the House when an*opportunity, would be given members' to discuss, tlio,' repprc ( of the Timber: Commission. •■:,-. : :•'' .Mr; ALLEN (Bruce) was. of..opinion that.the- ' House should be given'a chance:to,discuss.the inothods on which railway lines should'be, conslTticted into country districts. ■•• -- 1 :- '•■■:':■ ~; . .ii. ■Mr. ELL (Christchurch South) said .that it: was.: with anything but ■ satisfaction that, he had learned that it was : proposed to-increase, fares and Freights on 'the railways. •"■. ■•."■ ■'.. Mri SMITH (Rangitikei) , advocated ••' a: "full, discussion'. with ..reference ,tb the timber industry. If the; Government did .not; take' a decided step'"in;! the direction .\of: protecting thq industry ' the number of , hands ; : after, Christmas would be reduced by half.' Only' recently a , contract: 'for ',800,000 feet, of timber was let, and the timber was' to ''bo -Oregon , :pino;' • ■ .' " '•■; ■'" "" ': '•■■'■:'■ -. '. .-''■■■".." The Bill was then read's 'second, time:;..'.

During the. debate on the third reading, the Hon. J. A. Millar replied'to'critics on'the railways .administration. ".He- declared'-that the suburban service) was well'catered for in". New Zealand in comparison, , to; tho population. ■ ■■".';■■■■■•.' '.■:'.' ■■■,:;■ .-■:; ; : The Bill was then read a third' time, , and. passsd. •. '■; '. ,■;■■;■ ■ /. '.■■• 'I, ,' / ; , : INTERNAL 'DEFENCE, BILL. ; \. '"At 1 a.m. the Internal Defence Bill was re- ; ceived' by |Govcrnor's Message, and: was read a first time.:.' Tho/. second, reading 'was .'set .down !for,' to-day. !/ ", ■■-.',, -,'■•''.,,■:"'■'•.-. .;,■ /The , House then adjourned; v : .-j ['■.'.,..".-., .-■:".'' :'t." '■' '''•' ''•'. * ' '''' ■,"""■-.■'-•■■ .- ■■:'': "■