THE LAND BILL.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 680, 3 December 1909, Page 5

THE LAND BILL.

ALLEGED ADVENTURES IN COMMITTEE. \ HOT CRITICISM Or GOVEENMENT. The Hon T Y DUNCAN presented tho report of the Lands Committee on the Land Bill. Mr MASSEY asked the Mimslei for Lands (oir Jqseph Ward) whether he would 6tato when tho Bill would come on for its second reading Ho would also ask tho Chairman of the Land's Committee whether ho would lay the minutes, of the committee's, proceedings be I fore the House. iAir HANAf* ((IwevcatgiU) said he hoped that tho latter request of the Loader of tho Opposition uould Iμ agreed to It was cur rently ioport n d that uheu the Bill T\as before the committee it was considered up to a certain stage, and that certain .proposals were struck out It was also reported, that in order that theSo prpposals should bo reinstated it was decided that anothenmeeting pf the committee should be held That meeting, it was stated, had been held that day, when Mr Guthno, an oppositl6n meWbdr ofithb;'c6ramittee (ivh&'had been absent the preceding day), was present, The result was, ho understood, that tno pro posal in question i\as again inserted 1 'Sir Joseph Ward Is it not a breach of pnvi'lege to what takes place,before a committee P Mr 'Wittv Mr Hanan is not a member of tho Lind's-Committee How .did he get his information ' ' Sir Joseph Ward If he were present as a visiting member it is not fair for him to dis close Tvha.t took place. Mr Hnnan I was not there Sir Joseph Ward Then how did you get the information ? Mr Hanan said that ho was stating what Has reported to ha\o taken place. If tho request of the Leader of tho Opposition, which wns a reasonable one; were' acceded to',' the House would liilon whether tho roport was cor roct or incorrect Sir JOSEPH WARD, in repljing to Mr Massey's first question, said that it was not usual to fix a day for the second reading of a Bill in'-the way ■desired This intimation would appear upon tho Order Paper How could he name a da> when he could not toll whon important work now before tho House would be finished? ' , Mi Massoy 'iou mean that you will give us half an hour's notice? , Sir Joseph Ward You have always had moro than half an hour's notice Mr Bollard (Eden) I -suppose we will get the Bill next June? Sir Joseph Ward Notice will be given in thi usual way upon the Order Paper

WAS:-THE jBiIX^SHORN.' ,

LIVELY x SPEECH ?BY/ MEi; %LJti3p;.%\ Jlr. T. EKTAYlbßV(CKristchurch said it v\as' common 'talk' that: the".BillVhad been shorn of all'its. freehold clauses, , , but that they had beeii' reinserted-. as".the : .resulf'of bringing in-an jOppositiphV member who was not present at , the'former , meeting. This member (Mr. Guthrie) had' to be -.sent -fon specially. to restdro' to"tho; Bill■ clauses., going, to take an ay-from-(this , .; country the- vested, interests oi 'the .people»in tho renewable lease. That was what-was/stated, and if ,it;was true this country' was ''coming -to , : a> pretty, pass. -, It amounted to this: Ithat-the Liberal party was practically in- coalition'with: the'most conservative interests' in.the.Hquse- ini'regard; to most important measures-' of pblicy;-,'The Govern-: ment were in' this '.position, , :- that their policy could only be - maintained- bv■': a, combination vote. The Bill,.'he;' supposed,'.'wduld now",be brought forward and:the' House: would '-U " bull-dosed '"■■ into -passing', it- ;The ■ process of exhaustion would-be brought to bear under atmospheric 'conditions that during tho next three weeks-would f lead , to the surrender of virtuo'of almost any party- to enable it to get homo and • get away. : " Quos Zous'Vult —" *•

■ An hon member Yon won't see it down this Mr Taylor I don't know It is said whom tbo gods destroy they first make mad Mi Massey Whom they wish lo destroy Air Tavlor Anvhow they are in a hurrv to bring it down now. l> o donbt they are afraid it may lose some more of its limbs (Laughter) I congratulate Mr Guthno on the importance ho has assumed in the conn ■sols of tbe Empire Things have *me to a pretty pass when Opposition to be brought to the aid of the Government by ■ C^r'iv Jpseph' , :WardnThatts:not .taej sojfar;as | I'-ain'-oonceniediV ■•!':'.'•'-'> ■'' !, v-.v,''.':"-'^. : ' ; "-'■ ¥■'''■ '-"VI" '"'.llri Taylori'-That-may.;be.bo, ;bnt'a fewdays ago onlyi the Prime (Minister and. the "Almighty had : thd.rsligh'tcst'notion : pf; what .-the'; land riolicy,' of ■'- the .Qoyerntaeht, was'.';;- (Laiighter;) Arid 'the "Almighty. had' ; r,ot taken us. into ',-His: confidence 1 at: all, nor. Kadi thei; Prime :Minister. (laughter.)'' ■ Tho;i great;. dominatinß ; party : vsi New.'Zealand, politics "could pot have'fold '.what the 'land >tralicy :of ■ the • great /Liberal- party , was.-' .No.-'one' knew 7 now,. ,:Mr...; Taylor ■went' dri 1 to refer, to the' impotenbe of .the liberalmembers'in "'regard; to'.the ■ making" .'of'th'eir • inetf-and^in'tegard> to .confemplated ■■legisla-v tion. : V ;Th'ey.''.were''-useful'."for3 some:.-purposes,-but- not-'for -major "for.; minqr purpose's: -'..'This '.kind of flection' on"' everyVmember'of the.House. ,:■;,, 7 ;i ;v'i; ■ '"' The '■.members' of fthq '• liiberal!vparty were/ in actual-'politics mere .automatons: , .This Land Bill 'was'-'a , - breach' of trust; '■' ■■'•'•'■■' ■ .-.•..:■.':.':' . : .to'-ftn'.interjectipn-abont..spmp;news-. pkners'Changing-th.eiT opiniqnsii'Mr: ; . ; Taylor safdi'that' that : and; many/of .the.m->yere" nbiy : ' silcrit. : .,; Many of', them , '-Hadrlost ", courage; There was'apparently a'sortpf;mesmDng;p6vei'.': 'attnohing!tp; Cabinet fhie .country— : ft ; power -that rpbbeid both ; the.' rieSfspaper'-p'ress: : and ';tho rrpnblic'; man. of; their; .;se'nse' of vduty, ■"tiiid Bfccust:;; V^ 1 ; -■■.<:-'•'■:':<'-., ■ ,: '■'■ ■■An. i 'lidni' mbinher s' The; , power '.-oi ; tb&Vßuufi, l , ■

Mr Taylor wont on to sa> that they could not jot say what tho resistance power of the .House would ta. 'Mr Ngata Tho power of lesistanco -will be nil right so long as you are there Mr Taj lor said Mr Ngata might be very funnj, but ho must remember tnat he was occupjmg a position that ho would ne\er ha\e occupied had it been left to tho members of the House to decide At least, therefore, he might bo modest when ho is dealing with tho affaus of the -white people of this countij, and when tho Maori land question camo up, he would expect Mr Ngata to plead on behalf of hi* people as they were now pleading on behalf of tho white people. That was , not a becoming interruption on Mr. Kgata's part, against as honest a'protest as had over been made in that.House. On broad lines it would be just as scandalous a breach of trust, to force the Native owners of the Greymouth areas to give up the ownership of that land to satisfy the greed of tho European population as to ask tho people to give up their titlo and the titletof their children in these lands For w hat—to secure in their present positions the Cabinet of this countrj. A Government member: Hear; hear.

Cause of Mr, Millar's Silence; "It is an appalling fact," added Mr. Taylor, "that tho Labour party should find the Minister for Railways, who time/after time has declared his absolute hostility to nnj further alienation of the public (estate, sitting silent on this whereas ho should have led tho forces of the opposition to the proposal Is the mere fact of ms occupying a Cabinet position a justification for the abandonment of his" principles s " asked Mr Tajlor with dramatic gesture. "Is his Cabinet position to be the price of his silence , ' « We claim his assistance' We have a right to it We ought also to have the assistance of Mr Fowlds The Land Bill had no right to Tiass this session at all. At least they ought to give the people six months in which to realise the momentous change proposed There were thousands of small farmers who would oppose the freehold proposals in the Bill. (An Opposition member Nonsense) Mr. Taylor Tho man who says nonsense does not know what he is talking about There are thousands of men to day who aie 'being dragged at tho heels of this' cry for the freehold, and who never would have been farmers but tor tne; leasehold system. It's only because they want to gamble in land values that they want this Mr. RL'SSELL raised a point of order whether the report and Bill should not now be available for the inspection of members of the House i The SPEAKEB ruled to this effect The Hon. R M'ICENZIE raised a point of order, The matter under consideration was a motion that the report should lie on the table of tho House, and till that motion, and any amendment that might be wero disposed of, tho Bill was in possession of the Chairman of the Committee Tho SPEAKER upheld his previous ruling ' : ?;-JAMENDM.ENT!' I By'/MR.'>;HERR| I ES..->y , OBLIGE THE , PRIME; MINISTER." : '■Mγ;.- HERRIES, (Tauranga) moved an amendment' to' add -to the' motion "arid- that the minutes-of/the-proceedings; of .'the Committee in".: reference'' to this Bill be laid ; on the table of tho;House.."and;.printed." , This wpuld. give the head 1 ., of', the -Gdvernriterit ; an opportunity to!reply.'to the severe strictures of Mr.?Taylor, so< thathe :thbught he was ..doing the Government a service.". (Laughter.) ■ , '.'-.•■. .■.'■■•:. ■Mr. .MT-AEEN',(Wellington• East) said that the, Labour .'party in, the past, would have been ready to outthe throats of the Liberals rather thin assist.: them to'sell: the-people's-heritage, as was *now> proposed. He denounced the policy of' appealing to the meanest , passions, to the passion' of :greid.>. If ; ho had to stay, in the House -sis months;, and., half-a-dozen members would'-.'stand. ; by.. him, ■ no ■ freehold', proposals would go;through; - .' /.\';;"v ''-. ; - ;■■". : '.'"■;'■

MR. MASSEY EXPLAINS. 'Mr MASSEY said he was not a member of the Committee, and did not know whether the Tumours were true Ho wished to 'make an explanation in regard to Mr Guthne, who was absent from the House that day owing to the death of a relative Whether Mr (Jutnrie had been sont for to attend tho meeting of the Lands Committee ho could not say Mr Hardy (Opposition Whip) Ho was not sent for. v Mr Massej I am just informed that Mr Guthno was not sent lor, but it is a fact that ho attended the meeting of tho committeo this morning, and in that he was only doing his duty Mr Arnold You won't deny that the matter ■was held over ftW yesterday? Mr Mossey'said he know nothing about the proceedings of the committee Speaking of the Bill,' ho said that he was supporting it, and thit he wished to go a great deal further than tho Bill proposed. Mr, Witty Yon haven't a hope. ~

NpvPoilcy^of ; Exhaustion. ':;-^.v ■■':"'.-y'-r /■Mr. Massey,' in* referring' to'.Mr.'Taylor's'rem/urkvas to .the House ; being ,"bull-dosed" into passing the: Bill; said: "Whether Iydrive the Government: or. whether il' lead > them—and ■ I have done , both ——.".■■''.;•*• • - ■ r - . Hon. E. M'Kenzie:;; Toucan do neither. ''■ ■ '■Mr. JJassey :;(Whether Ido' one or theother I.'ivyill. riot • be ;a .party ,-to -placing • any -legislation on- the Statute-book by : a process ol oihaustion.' 'I will hot do it.. .(Hear, hear:):. Continuing, -heTsaid '.that it 'whs' not .correct, as, might -be ; inferred, from- '•Mγ.- Taylor's', re-' majeks;-.that, if'the-freehold'Bill ■passed : .there wpiild be nothing'left ;in-the .shape of leasehold. Speaking.as 'the leader' of the .freehold patty, ; he said thatitho option of .the freehold should ho'ifiven.'•■'■' : ■■-,-' ■■■'' Ell:-Then the .leasehold.cannot last, and. ybu-know.it..':' '',:' ... ."■■" ■/.' ''■ ■■'■ : ..,-, Mr.'/Massey:'l.'am'a believer in:the leasehold 'for'those who.want it; but I also believe in .the. option of'the'freehold. ■, ■. '..... ■■i.: ■ Mr.; Russell: mean that.~a),man who" takes'.'up '-a'lease- tbAy..should have the right, to'get the '.freehold to-morrow? , ;..'•■ . v : : ; :Mr. "''Massey :■', Certainly,--| if:. he '■ has complied with'therrequirements.'and has shown that he is'a:bpna.fide'-'settler." Vln-nineteen•'cases out of ! ; twehty,- when country --lands increased-in: value it was not due 'to/ the growth of popula-, tion nor to public;expenditure, -but.- to the: 'energy/.'and; industry of the' settler himself. It' ; was'-.becatise' : they.''did' not'want- to 1 ' see' the settler robbed, of tho results of his; energy and , ■industry that', they'■'•• supported/ .the- ' freehold, tenure'.' ■'. They ; believed; that; the Country 'could never be prosperous and its people independent u'ile'33-the IpeoMevrere" attached 'to .the. Boil under-the-freehold- system.' ■■■> : '- • '■■.■ '-■■';. ■ ' ■,'. •:,' ■■, ;; :7.PRIME i: .'MIN'IBfER;'':.IN- ; D,EI:ENCE.. ; . : -' ;

CpNSTITTJENCIES; AND; THE ' ; tended , .- to'say anything, oh., this occasion,-'but he .had been, led'to' change his mind." One gross" misrepresentation: had been removed.: during. the 'speech r of, the. Leader of .the Opposition,-'and; , -that '.was the 'statement thaVMr. , iGuthrie ;had:.bee'n.' sent .-for.'..:,He /was entitled'''tb'.assume'-• friflni Mrl: Alassey's'.state.rnent,that;.no 'member''of the .Opposition seni for Mr.-Guthrie, fi and'. certainly, no'.Government member/sentibr , him, and no'request had teen made'.' , by.'himself.;;, . It -seemed 'to 'him /extra-: ordinary/-' that v.thbse /.members- i who -' favoured the; leasehold- tenure, only,;'and; who he knew wers.sincere, in". , their .opinions,, were .ready .:tp grasp, aV.any,: shadow: to. /oreate '. the; -impression, that: the .Government- ,6r v .himself had done' a wrong thing-in this irespeot. ■'.';,■- ; . 7. !' - Mr.' Eussell: ".'W'hb: is - in : fayoar. of f the »lea'se-hold'-.duly:-?'V;.' "=■:'■■ •/:■ •"'•' ■/■:•';■■ ■'■:■ ::'-' ,v '•' ,■.:■■- ■' '■■■• ; • The;'Pritߣ'Minister -replied. that."lie'. would show that-IMr. Bussell; was/,'the','greatest enemy, of": the leasehold, iii' this coirntrv—Mr: .Russeil arid :his friends. l who ■■were ■workingi'.withVhiin,' If they, were npt',prepared' to see .that 'a good thing was'' jßeing' done; , for. the leaseholders' they, .'were ; going.ria. theVdirectibniof'assisting them to' 1 lose ■■-' It- , was''quite ejideEt. that-some:; members': w«re preparea ,to" lfsteii to; any;, rumour.' How'ready: they were to .'declare .Mr.', Gu'thrie had 'been sent. [ for.vthe being /against the:- Governm'ent.;and:/against 'as Minister,:on thai: particular/ Cpmmitteei - -If:; he .had" 'sent iti. Mr.vGuthrie 'he would.haye , beenfentitied - :to ! refuse ; to {come. :\: .f , ':':•;■.' '"■.''" •"■'■■''■■■-i' :/•':- '.-■': !|-

Denial.'of. I'Bull-Dosingi ,, !-": ■; ■>;'', -'V - .'■'. Inregard : <if ■."bull-dpsing," he hid. to .cross' swords with, ~the. .Leader ..of tho. , ' Opppsition I .' .""Mr. 1 ::*Massey.'..: had ■ said, 'TVhether : ;l drive;-or'lead ■the Government, and I; have'done bothV/laranot.in'faypur of the. policyiipf, exhaustion:",' It wasivery • wondeiful.;.to■ see'what/ estraordinary; capacity Mr.' Massey 'assuniwl'tb.,himself •■when.Jt'.was.Mjonvenient.'.,'Pe.did.npt',;knPw. when Mr.- Massey had,, driven" the: Government.- :, " v .:;!'.. ■■■-.. : • Mr.vMassey,:' Ask ; the-countryi : , ■ '. : ■ ■..'..-, .The-I , riri)e;'Sfip'ister'''said , ;that. Mr;'-llassey had-'not v done;so'.'ie.-his tilne, or• iri ■ that*of f liis predec'essor.V and' lie:'did .not: Ihink 'rh«.; w.as likely'tb'-sucoeed; in-a'driying welcome to^say.-that'.' Vp'. was .driving-'the-Goy-.ernnientVib'ut .it,..was'.an'idle'.boast. ■, -Neither did , he'.khow;.. any instarice'.where ;Mr.'Mnssey led 'the'Goyernfiient: ; -•- r v" v..!'- ■■- ■-. :•■, :VMtV'-.Massey: vl'don't'know 'whether-IJm'Oe'aiU ine-.ypiii .but;ypn'r^ , fpll6wirijj''mo;, ; .(Lttu'ghte\ i .)v .••Thp- : Erime';Mihister.:'-I'.don;'t..know ; !whether. .^ ;^ani^,fo^l'^yin'B■■*6u;■,Jβt.^::'f!b;■fa^'.'., done.•;»V'V' Gbntinninß,. -hii , JpSeph- '-Wn^d - siiid ■he'-'.was'iriot:.'■:pre'pare4'.'iii ; ' , -.thei'interests .of; th'o (iotiritry ; ;.; to ■: 'have : 1 ' 4hy ; '-- i any any' Binr/arid'-he^meyer'haa-'bMn.'..;'Any .'Mail'who , -teimitQ" tta^GoTgwiiaentifpißijt

its' history with regard to every fight dii great measures in recent years. There had never been'a'great measure introduced without the public having a full opportunity of considering it. . • • . ■■■. . .: ... A member: .Has this Bill beeu before the country?. ■■..,■-. ..:.'.,: . The Prime Minister said lie did not know a man on either side of the House who had not had the land question before him at his election. If. Mr. Taylor, because he had an electorate ; who consisted wholly, or chiefly of leaJseholders, thought that that was the case with tho . other members,' he was under a great delusion. . ' .

Mr Taylor Takes a Hand. .■■...; Mr. Taylor: There was.not a. man on your, side who, at the hustings, sai'd ho would let the renewable leases be.converted to freehplds. Sir Joseph Ward: There was not a man who, before it was- put on the statute-book, said he was favourable, to the renewable lease, and you can't deny it. ' Mr. Taylor: Oh yes, .T can. . ; Sir. Joseph Ward stated that the Liberal party had been demanding i\ shorter lease for ten years. Messrs. Taylor' and M'Laren were talking about what the Liberal party should.do and should.not do. He wanted to know, what assistance the party had ever had from-either of them.' and how long it would have lasted if it had had to depend on their assistance. -. '

Mr. Taylor:,l'll answer that .later; The Prime Minister admitted that those two members were on the side of radical measures, but Mr. Taylor did not believe in'party at all, and they both believed.that this question should be submitted, to,a.referendum

Agains^.a-Referendum.- '.'■•; . A. referendum on this question would be useless, futile, and certain to defeat the' inten'. tionsof its advocates. If they took the opinions of the' constituencies, and added these together to get .the opinion of the country.as a whole, those constituencies and members which'did not believe with Mr. Taylor and those associated with him-would still persevere in, their; opinions, even if' a majority for : the whole Country affirmed the position Mr. Taylor was urging. After the. referendum was taken, a majority of the constituencies would compel their representatives to support that tenure in the House which'the individual constituencies themselves desired, and there would be just differences in the House as there wore to-day. There was no such thing vas sheltering behind a : referendum. This question would have had to come up if the Government had not moved.. It was , the fact of the Government moving that "prevented' it poming up in some other form. :'To consider that, they could go "cast'this , session without having tho land question settled, even if the Government did not.bring forward' a Land'Bill, was to ignore the. conditions of, the, country.. .•; . " ' '.'Mr. Arnold:: It won't'be'settled if you put this through. ■ ■ "■';.'■■' ■ ■'•■: ; Sir. Joseph, said he was not. satisfied that it would ever be permanently settled. " To the leaseholders he -would say that the various Liberal Administrations had made it a cardinal feature of ' theft-■ programme to endeavour ,to ■hold on to a portion of the public estate. Ninetenths of. the Crown tenants had turned right round against the tenure under which they were.placed 'pn. the land. Strong men residing ■outside'the cities—in'all the country electorate. , ) 'in''recent years their views on the. land question. ■-'~ : ;• ■ ■:■'.■ ■.','

A>Force Like the Pacific.-' , \ , ; 'Whether' critics liked it or.not, they could, no more' stop the .current of. politics' being carried out in accordance with the will of the people than they could stop the Pacifio Ocean from moving. It should not be forgotten that for .the first time in the history-.of this country ' there:' were • nine million acres /set..- aside under the leasehold, system." ' '•':, ..' -~ . . Mr. T. B. Taylori.They will.go,' too.' '. ■ \ ■Sir Joseph: Yes, if you' and your.friends have their, way. '■■, ■ ' .. .' l Mr. Taylor: Bunkum!.'■ "■"'' ■■. ,'■' .■■/•■■■ •Mr. 'Witty: , Some of your Ministers would, agree to the leasehold of it parted withi The Priihe Minister went on'to say that his critics'did not seeinto understand the advantages which-would accrue to the State 'under, the Goyernment's;proposals..- As he had pointed out years"ago, tho country could not,-continue, to borrov; money as it"was doing.'even "for'the acquisition' of , lands for' settlement.' .''■•' 'Mr. Witty:. Why ndt? The money is interestbearing. •■ ' '.:', '.- -.• ■■■'■ ' '■■' 'Sir Joseph: What-is the-good of your.tal>-ing'-about* its 'being .interest-bearing- if : yo\i can't get the money? .. . ..:■-..- .; .--. .-■' At this stage the adjournment.bell rang, and the discussion was'brought td an end. ' .'".■'■'