THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 649, 28 October 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

'' v '^:?; : ¥:^rWELLINI3TON: ; iBILL; : -' ; "-/' : :.-- ; ' ■'■Stiwiaj'' COf'IMITTEE. :;: ;ImportanT'^oti6n;bt ; mr: herdman: : wifV -^^'-fr' to; committ«e 'to .deal tien^nt'BllL^'t l^llo^^ 9 a** 'tod; Set-, ,:^r;^SliMAN; M id;ii e ; had to hiovo'a very : S'latfe' might nol taius tfiat that' was- a proper time to mova the,'.ckn«' -but:;he' thought™V :"?s •-the l would haA 'fe,?,vi.i ; ma?tor ''? f ?""■ importance.' Mr. : ;^^hajl :^: -^ s ! ;^^» : bo^^l^^ ti °9 s^orS l«ws;for local application* for a' grant" ■■: tor roads-or-bridges, or -any public work, • .and, every-propasau or; scheme - ? by any t^'^: ; the ; Crowtf in a\ . -State on'a ; -~; pubhe. iyorki !B hall,v j n ,-. thß -.first .instance, ■ -" •' Hw^'a o ,' W 'Advisory'Committee; '''■'■ . - ??i.^liSory^Committee';shall .-'be": •'":::'SJd m M% : }tb * Governor, and: it shall; ::,COnast,,of i .threeApersohs'iof.vlong business ' -■ vtime -of : appointments', serving in ;jthe. Public; Service, Colony.. -Each "' member-,of the Advisory Committee, shall : ; ,and.'he..shall not .faring such period o?' ■.•',',;»eyeii,y6ars...bo; removed -from offioe, except 'PPp.afiV'resolntlonrtd-that 'effect passed By ■■■' '■■ : ' fc< w'v :^?^'? f "Parliament;';:'.., -..:;:■ .:. ;•' .(e) After.' the "passing'. :of-' this'; Aofc' ho' . ...wonev,shall be'advanced by way'of'loan -' -or otherwise,to;'a local;body, and no grant ';... of ;ntpncy: ; ,f6r;roads .or/bridges or' for -any/ .pa»lip-work out; of,£ie.Public: Works Pund .''» nal l;- ». made,,*f'.<my' ; Minister .'for- the ' ':Crown'or ; by Pa»£iJ;nt,'-and; ho proposal -,' ..-or. scheme' of any involving the . :- :,expendituro of monoy.i'out, of the Public■'.. Works Fund shall.: bo .'proceeded with until ;'■;■.-,-.the. application forithe-.loan; or the.grant,:;.j ;...; or : the .proposal, or.scheme -hereinbefore re- V inferred to shall .have ibeen considered and , '■';■< recommended.by-' the:Advisory,:,Cpmniittee." j ;;.Recently..^in';Great Britain, ; said ; Mr.: Herd;"mnn,:'thß''House, of iCommons .had been con- • Bidorihgv the.'vDevelopm'ent'ißill— : . "K'Thei-Hph.tE/ M'KENZIE .asked if the pro- ./? posod -clause did hot involve an appropriation. ■;. ;Mr, JAMES ALLEN said tho,point bad been. : : ; brought.' up,.-before.': ; There; was., no ;-■ direct' ap- : = propriationp';l''-'■■' : ':-;-v'V; , : .;;':;'■'.''■■•-.,:- .; ;J,vThe VCHA^tRMAN>: ; .(Mr; ';.T.:';vM:>;Wilford). thoiight that there was no-; appropriation,- but ,;.ho "would;hav'e' : to. .considar;whother; the matter. '/■ brought tip' was,-riot'foreign ■ to the Bill. 1 •■■'".-.■-'• :^>;MJ»'.^toMAN'''ttrgea'jhat'.-ttor6,;was'.-enor--;f Diuus'4 J a£te y of public money in rega'rd;to public \ ''■ works', ; ? and;' grants ■ werev often ;■ made, i he ■ ■ >bfri V lieve'd.Vfor the ;■ purpose;' of "influencing '■'. ,yotes. ?:The'Jßfitiah",Government had .provided in l cbh- ?■ nectioh '■? with; the- Developmentv Bill:, that, - all ;

moneys proposed to be voted'for public works .should be first,referred to an advisory commit-,tee."..'i-.-V.v.' . -,/ '■■■': The■. Chairman ruled that Mr.. Herdman's clause : was foreign to the Bill. < Appeal to the Speaker. '.■.■;'■>■,; • ..Mr..MASSEY then moved to report progress in'ordor to get the ruling of the Speaker. This was a very important point, and'he was afraid that the Chairman's ruling might be made a ■very undesirable precedent. Sir. Massey's motion was agreed to.".•'• . The PRIME MINISTER then raised the .point that it would cost money to set up the committee, and therefore an appropriation was implied. i . .Mr. HERDMAN replied that appeal had been made to tho : Spoaker only for decision as to whether his clause was foreign to the Bill. He denied, that ■there was any ulterior reason for moving the.clause. ' -: ; : '•■ ■ The Prime, Minister: I know as much about ■ that as;you. - /'■ ,: Mr. Herdman replied that there was no rea■sdii.formoving.,tfie i clause except; to obtain supervision : of -public works. expenditure for the purpose of preventing waste. ' ';. The SPEAKER stated that the question whe.ther • a clause, ' came within the : purview of a proposed-' Bill was always left to the decision of . the, ■ Chairman. If that was not approved, notice ,of motion should be given that. v the House disagreed with the Chairman's, ruling. : Mr.;JAMES'ALLEN asked the Prime Minister, to give some information concerning the item-in the schedule, "for other public works, £400,000."- -

.SIR JOSEPH WARD, said that any items Tvhioh it -was proposed to ' bring under that allocation- would have to be, authorised individually under tho Imprest Supply Bill, -or /Authorisation Bill..:

Mr. ALLEN said the country should understand the position. Instead of assisting the Public /Works Fund out of exoess of revenue, the .House .was being asked .to/commit itself 'to a policy''of going in for-an extra amount of/borrowed money every year, to. be allocated for. the Publio Works Fund. The Prime Minister, should state what'ho had. in -his mind regarding the items which were to .'make up this" £400,000. . - ': ' \' /

Tho CHAIRMAN- proposed to, put the>question that the schedule stand as printed Mr. ALLEN, by way of : protest, moved that tho' item be reduced by £200,000. It was unfair to ask-members to commit themselves to a loan for £400,000 without knowing what it was for.

. Mr. MASSEY acknowledged the necessity for the-Loan Bill, but urged that the Prime Minister was , not ■ treating ; the House ' fairly in withholding information as to the objects of this amount. -He did not wish to be unreasonable,- and' if the Prime Minister would give some indication of what was'to be done with this.amount, there'would be no further trouble in regard to it ■ '• ' ■'-; ■ Mr. T. E.. TATLOK .(Christchurch North) said that it would be more intelligible to strike the amount out altogether than to reduce it ■by je200,000. Every Loan Bill, that came down raised ■■ the whole question of. public work 3, expenditure. ; The ,-■ policy, from : top to ■■■ bottom was :about. as, rotten'as it could ■ possibly be, and they went on tinkering .with it from-time to .time. He hoped'that'an opportunity would be given at'.the third reading of: considering the.whole system; of 'raising . and expending money, for publio works. ~ The' amendment' to reduce the amount was lost by. 42 votes to 22.; ■ : . ; 'Mr; HEEDMAN. then moved that the :Bill be recommitted to .allow of..the insertion of the clause ; which .he had previously /submitted.'' ' ■'■':'':.■■'.'■■ '■> "■'■ ~':,, : . .'The SPEAKER ruled that as the clause had previously:been, disallowed the Amendment was not ;in: order.';. : : ,■?':.. ■■;.'•'.."... .'.'-.;.'' : ; ; V ;: : THE : TH|RO' READING; V. ; Mr,'HEEDMAN, speaking to the motion for the third : reading,'condemned the Government's extravagant and wrongful methods of dealing with expenditure on public works. He referred again :to the. Advisory Committee set up_ in connection-'withthei-Development Bill in .England. 'The committee was composed of experts, and though Ministers were, not actually bound, ho' believed,: by r -the 'recommendations, of the committee, they' would hesitate to ran counter to; them; Some sort, of public works board should be established'here, or the whole question of local governmentrcform should be gone into."''Tear after';, year" the' Government :had declared that'they would:* bring up this .important matter for .consideration by.the House, but 'they-ihad- never- doner.so. - The method of expending money ,in grants •'■;: for roads' and bridges iby local bodies was not a satisfactory, one, "and he, thought it-was time that'4he' local bodies" and should be placed in'a'more-indenendent'position.; It was wrong tna,t .bodjes .should constantly havo... toi-appeal t3 ; tbe ...Gdverpment fori raid. There sbould'.be a body of'men independent of political control who should deal.with requests for'" 'expenditure,-: V'-'aad- ■ not Ministers, ~Xhoy.:-,..w0u1d, -;if;',-:.necessary,i. .visit ■;:.the •Ideality:'' -concerned 'and ascertain : '-if'", the amounts asked for, Bhould- be spent or refused. . ,'He ventured to ', believe that if this were done; not only would';the _Pnblic Works Fund' be' expended more''econoriiically, ; but the actuaT)work;perf6rmed by local bodies would-be/ done :inore and -efficiently. At; the nresorit .'time,' including the Consolidated Fund," MimsteTS: had 'unfettered • control of ■fivei. or, six million pounds'a year."'Until this system'was altered he: believed' that money would bo squandered and, the -administration of publicworks' would be"iinsatisfnctory. : // ■'.-■■. : Mr'. HANAN flnve'rcareill) opposed the .pro-" posal.to establish .an,-advisory' committee - ontheground that it was undemocratic. ;•'•'. MR. MASSEY',CONDEMNS UNSEEMLY

'•;•".'/• ,'.'".;'.' ; HASTE. ; ; ': ;■■;.. Mr.- MASSEY. denied an assertion by' Mr.. Hair.n that the local Government Bill was blocked by. the .Opposition. He;, was., prepared, to support any scheme for the'roform of local government on a satisfactory .basis.' The' present system, of administering grants had been responsible for, the wasting' of hundreds of thousands'of'.pounds. Under tho present sys; tein'••' there was 'absolutely no check on the 'expenditure for'; public : works. /The passing: of the Public Works Estimates in the House was a mere' farce. They; were .brought down in tho 'evening and passed'undor conditions,which made it impossible for anyone but the Ministers concerned : to know, what the'items', were about. The present system was used to influence votes at election time, and they would'never have, satisfactory administration'till the. system, was. The.Prime Minister was very sensitive to criticism of, his finances, but what would the public outside say, and what would other countries say, when it was cabled that the New Zealand Treasurer .found it necessary to. push his Loan Bill: through-as a'Bill of urgency at one :sitting? -Mr. Massey denied,the truth of an interjection by tho Prime Minister that tho Opposition had done all they could to block the Bill.' They had a' right'to criticise. .The Bill was: being forced through with unseemly haste. He had asked the Prime Minister., if the' first instalment of £50,000 on 1 the naval subsidy, which was due on May 12, had been' paid,.' and-the Prime Minister had declined to ati6wer- tho question. The Prime Minister: I .did not decline. '

". Mr.'Massey said lie had asked the Prime Minister' twice' and ho '.had not answered. Would ho answer now? The, .Prime Minister ..said he .would, answer when he replied at length. '■ Mr. Massoy said that if the amount,had not been paid, they Were placed'in a very peculiar position.''lt would ; moan'that Ministers Were not. complying with the law which they had placed on the Statute Book.': Mr. Massey also' referred to '■' the -restrictive operation of -the mortgage;'tax. '-.-■..• ' : ;',.. ■".:.■

MR. J.,C.'THOMSON'S-REMARKS. v : 'Mr: J.C. THOMSON (Wallace), condemned Mr. Herdman's proposal as one to rob Par r liainent of its power over tho public purse. Ho thought, however, that the Government could effect ( a, greater saving than they were now doing. :After all economies had' been effected it was right to borrow for'reproductive purposes. Ho believed that they would have to strengthen the Consolidated; Fund in order that certain things which were now charged to borrowed..money should be charged, to revenue. 'The -present'system': of banking would' have ; to be investigated as'things would.always, be' unßatisfaclcry so '.lone 'as- money was; sent .Home to bo;gamble^.with.' : Mr. PEARCE (Patea) ; said;that he,was in favour of -borrowing for /reproductive works. There had been waste in regard to the Dunodin station, and the Rotorua bath-house, and the now post offices' for Wellington and Auckland wore: on- extravagant lines. It was his opinion that the Midland Railway would not pay within the lifetime of any of tho members. Seeing that the population and exports of the North Island were greater than those of the South Island, it should receivo more considera- I Hon in.tho .matter of railways. '. ' '■! ■X''"'.'■'. '., 'MB.' HERRIES'S SPEECH. : ; - ■ Mr. -HEERtES ' (Tauranga) ; twitted Mi. Thomson with having been near thin (ice when' dealing with banking.;. If he had gone a little further'he would have found himself advocating' State banking.',...... Mr.'Thomson: And why not? ,'. ~ : ?Mr. Hemes: You. would find yourself, like Mr. 'Hogg, thrown, into', the outer, darkness,-' ' -Sir-.;Josoph:'-.Are'ypu;a rapportor .of ,Stato banking?-'''"■'•■:■. '-'•'.-■' .'■'■'.'--,'. -'Mr. -Berries:'Kp.; It'ib because of 'the fact : that 'Mr. ;Ell'favours.* State banking that ho 'has'lost whatever chance he ever had of getting'tho vacant portfolio. .-;; '■'; .. Heaumrng,'. Mr. Herriea.'. said that in his . wasno .need for'ainy «»4na

hurry, in connection with tho passing of the Loan Bill. Ho would liko to point out that he was.going to support the Bill, as he believed' tho money was needed, and tho country could stand the loan. ..What Sir. Joseph should have, done was to move tho adjournment on tne evening, and then when tho House mot that afternoon moved that the orders oi the day should be postponed .and'' promised members .another opportunity to bring forward their private Wilis. ,He thought that when iresh taxation was found necessary for revenue it should indicate to the Ministry and the country that the time of borrowing must be gradually curtailed. In 19(10 the proportion ?L a d^ entur « stock--was 17 per cent, and in ■1908 it was 2fi per cent. Unless the inscribing was undertaken with greater rapidity, tho new financial operations would be worse than th,e

.J U /-.,J IA CpONALD.(Bay of Plenty) denied n.t.i * e °, ove J nm ent gave votes, indiscrimihf= IL f e , lect,onee nue purposes. So far as ?h,f t ° "2 s con ? CT ncd, ho could say that the co-operative system as applied to railkl\ZT a $nCCeSS ; was hi "opinion that the loan was vory desirable •■-..-'• THE MEMBER FOR BRUCE. .i? l i''i AI P N (Brnoe) said hfl would'first of ail lite to remove an erroneous, impression. No one on his side of the House haa stated that-the local bodws wasted money in connection with works. He. would like to- say ■that if the Publio Works Departmental:haa not been set. ujv from £20,000 to £23,000 per ff^iJ\ uld The Government should, have left the construction of roads and bridges to the local bodies, and if that had wt n irSV S°- Dld fe Te been do n« better. Why had the Prime Minister refused to give' any details as to the £400,000 which was' wanted for other public works"? Perhaps it was going tobe expended on further-build--ings on extravagant lines. At any rate, ; it was separate from the money required for railways, roads, and bridges, and additions to open lines. He was going-to support the loan, : because he want the Dominion to he placed in an' undesirable position. Replying to interjections Oy the Prime. Minister, Mr: Allen said it was to be regretted that Sir Joseph had been so uneasy during, the past few days. It would appear that he could not listen to criticism witnout jumping off his seat. What was the result of Sir Joseph's, action in making the passage of the Bill a matter of urgency?, Why he; had called attention and unwisely, he thought, to the fact that the finances of the s Dominion required to be strengthened. Sir Joseph alone was to blame for :the position. So long as the i revenue was increasing' there was not much danger if borrowing was ■ kept .within reasonable bounds. He did not object to a certain amount of borrowing. ~, - .Sir Joseph: You can't. :Mr. Allen: Well, I'must object to the' terrible amount of' borrowing that is taking', place. Sir Joseph: You want two millions yourself. -.Mr. Allen: Don't try to hide under an attack on me the criticism which' is being levelled at your methods. ■■■ ■<■-

In conclusion, Mr. .Allen said:—The people Gceiu to. be. asleep, in regard to this matter. Why, the Houso appears to have lost control as'.to tha finances. ■ Whatever is brought down by a Minister is supported blindly 'by the members on the Government side. I wish .that we could bo brought- back to more • reasonable ways.' ■■■'-.-.■•■•. >';,.' Mr. HAKDY (Selwyn), who resumed the de-. bate in th 6 evening, said he supported the Bill, but the objected to the Prime Minister's conduct when he was angry and touchy. The Opposition must be allowed the liberty of fair and impartial criticism. He objected to the'allocation for "other. public works," when v members'were unable to. ascertain what those works were'to bo.' They would- always : support the Prime Minister when lie was right, and. always oppose him when he wasrwrong,..which meant that they would have to oppose him.very often,

;:;, public works expenditure. ' • ■ Mr.'':FISHER': (Wellington -Central) pointedout that the people.knew, yery^little about the details of the publio .works i expenditure. He would romind members that on one occasion a telegram was 6ont'td Wailn to the effect.that ; if. the .electors :did not return a Government (Candidate they could.not expect,to get much 'in the way of grants.'.'- -,--. ,". .; '•'. ■-.•-.;. Sir Joseph: I don't believe such a telegram was ever sent. ■---..:■

..Mr. Fishery If-necessary. I can produce a copy of it.-.' ■, . '-' , ~-• \- Mr. Fisher next'referred,to statements made by- the Prime Minister at New, •York.;-, Sir Joseph- was reported-to have talked, about New Zealand as "a land where-there was no want, no idling,-no paupers, no social suffering, and no trusts";, also that "we first found out what the.people I .want, and then wo do it as they want it done."•-, . -,■; ,:. : ,-'.. . ; .

..Sir Joseph; .'Are! those■'.my".words•'or-'comment on '.-'i'-' ■" ' :-' -iV'-' .Mr..Fisher: Ican't.say,'.but it would appear that they are yonr,own words,.seeing that they are inserted;in inverted commas.. -'•.'- -

'Mr. 'Fisher drew, the 'attention of the'Pririio Minister to t a statement 'cabled :by the' Mel-, bourne/correspondent of.the "Financial Times" to tte 'eUect that. No,w Zealand was,-palpably suffering from over-borrowing. Mr; Fisher then Remarked that in 1893 there-'were 8270 State employees, who--.received ' JE844.000"-in wages, whilst- in 1908 the State employed 17,584 employees, who were paid jei,551,000.-: To-day, ac-, cording,, to-'a'Minister of the Crown,; 130,000 people were in that way dependent'on the State. -'

• Mr.-Millar: What,l said was that allowing each worker a wife and one child that ■ was the position. .. - ■ Mr:. Fisher.': Well, I will diyido the 130,000 by.3, and that'will give- over 43,000 State em-, ployees at'the present'time. ' '■-V :--.'■' Mr. Millar: That is including co:oporativb workers. ', ■.-'■■. - '-■ , : ■■ -.-..'....'.'.'■■

Mr. Fisher went/on to say 'that it' was a striking co-incidence that tho State Departments were only found to.be over-staffed after the general'election. He next referred'to the largo increase, in cost of government under tho Ward .Administration as compared with tho Soddon 'Administration. It was not right, he continued, that the Primo\ Minister should withhold.the information which the country' was entitled to; know with reference to the raising of the' Joans. Only the other day Tasmania raised' a loan and tho details were made'public at once. He would like to point out.that in Victoria 93 per cent, of the State' loans-were reproductive. In New Zealarid he doubted whether more: than C 3 per cent.' of the State loans were in a like position;' Members could not tell what additional money would he heeded at any early date. It was his View' that the defence proposals would involve, an increased expenditure'of a quarter pf',a million. He thought that there should be a sinking fund in .connection with public buildings. . To Mr.'Hanari ho would say that if. a Local Government Bill were brought down ■: this session he would see; how. tho Opposition would view the measure. -.■■'■

y:s SHAMEFUL WASTE'. OF MONEY," ; Mr. T.:B. TAYLOR (Christciinrch North) described as extraordinary rMr. Massey's proposalto place .the control' of the public works ex: pendlture in the ' hands' of a body/outside Parliament. Mr. Herdman was •' to bo con-' gratnlated. for his persistency in urging public service reform. But he': could not'see the logic of his position. The Government should give up trying to. fulfil the' functions, of a" magnified road board. Thero should be brought down a Local Government Bill that would.take from.the House the power of spending money on works about themerits'of which it knows nothing. : No one could deny. that there had,.'.been '-. a shameful waste, ! of money in connection with public works expenditure during the past twenty-five years. Under thb present system members could not ascertain thejcost of any work that was being done under the co-operative .system unless tie Government could bo induced to bring down a special'return, A large portion of the money ! which- had been spent on, roads and bridges 1 and railways ought to have been raised by means of a land tax. The present system of taxation he could only describe as unjust and inequitable. There ought to be found some meanstof imposing a betternwnt tax; so that public expenditure which distinctly improved the:value of land should be recouped from the increase. The people to whom the wealth .went as a. result,, :of; public . expenditure'.; should hot .leave the people to whom none of . it went t to pay ... the ■".- piper. The landowner's share-.of-taxation had brought him a very tangible result. ■' The freeholders as a class had contributed six million of land taxation, and- had been; made a present of '85 millions sterling of unearned increase in land values. The future, and. the near future, ought to see some systom: of taxation that would take some of tho burden' off tho shoulders of the landless people,; and: put • it on' the shoulders of the .class .who alone .in-New Zealand seemed to havo a faculty for absorbing values that they did: not earn; ho referred to the land. Roferring to tho system on which Parliament is conducted, Mr. Taylor said that thoy :were bound to find time to haggle over tinnot measures like this, but they could not find time at tho end of-a session to deal with matters that involved national issues. As a result'of. our lqbour legislation,; and a period of- prosperity, wages had gone up about 17 per cent, in 17 years, and,the cost' of living had, gone up a 'little more than .17 per cent. Tho class Was just ; about whore it '.was 17 years ago.■■:.' And what about tho other ,classr The farmer was entitled; to all the.consideration as a primary producer which the House ,could givohim, -but he was .not tho only-class in the community. The,farming class enjoyed as high a standard of living as the industrial class,, and by tho increase of land values they had gained millions of pounds more than the dao»3 who did not own land.

When the land ■ question came'-up later, that was'an issue that'would .have' to be thoroughly threshed 'out," and'he' would"urge on overy possible occasion in regard to'.that class that had, done their full share to bring about the prosperity of tho last seventeen years, and found themselves no better off than they were sevonteen, years, ago,, that .their, burden should bo lightened and tho burden of taxation placed on the broader shoulders that'were so much better able to bear it. . MR. BAUME DEFENDS. THE FARMER. Mr. BAUME, as representing a city constituency (Auckland East), said it could not be denied that the work of the farmer was the groundwork of the prosperity of the whole community. The workingmau depended entirely for his prosperity on the work and prosperity of the farmer. ..The farmer could live without the lawyer, without the shopkeeper, and without many of! the avocations carried on in town, hut not one of these could "live without the farmer.' -The primary industry tho world must always be that of-the man who made two blades of grass to grow where only one blade grew before. He was surprised that some defence of the farmers h.ul not already come from the Minister for Lands.or the Minister for Agriculture.' Sir Joseph Ward (Minister Lands): Ton will get that when the' Land' Bill comes.i , Mr. Baume: But the attack'has been made here to-aightl It was impossible for members to take any reasonable part in the discussion on the' Estimates, except in'so far as certain items were concerned. Owing to the extension of the fnnetions of the State, and the fact that Parliament was becoming more and more a"glorified board of works it was becoming impossible for members adequately to discuss the expenditure they had to pass. "What is the good,". asked Mr. Baume, "of having control over expenditure which you know nothing about and never can understand? What is the good of having control of a vote .when you have ito pass that vote and can't help yourselves? Whatis the good of having control over public money when you are. told by the' Prime Minister, and I have no'doubt.-rightly told, that the'million- vote is necessary? Sow are you going to prove' that,it ..is'.;'not?" He was a member ot the Government, side because he believed that on the whole'the, Government's legislation had been beneficial. The Premier said that a loan was necessary. He did not know what it was for, but because the Prime Minister said it was necessary, and] because he thought the balance of good was on that side, he voted with the Prime Minister when it came to a division.- That was the position with the other members; on the Government side. Speaking on the question of land taxa-, Hon, Mi. Baume said that if many more threats. were made 'such as had come from' individual-members of- the House in the way of increasing the burdens on especially the smaller land owners, it would increase tho nervousness which was felt by a great number of them already. They are frightened,, as they were frightened - before, by the speeches of some of ■ the members-on this "side of the-House more especially—who, have, advocated revaluation of leaseholds, and measures by which some-portion, at any rate, of the earnings which really belong to the land- ' owners shall be taken away from them. Ho was a thorough believer in the betterment and he would bo very'glad to see [ something in that direction advocated by the Government. . -■'<■ . ' OTHER MEMBERS. Mr. POOLE (Auckland West) denounced the attempt that was being made to cUp the wings of finance. He stated that the loan money was not going to be spent in ornate buildings, but. on railways, roads, and bridges, and in other ways for the development of the country. • ' Mr. MANDEB (Marsden) said that the-rail-ways were costing from £2000 to .£3OOO per mile more than would be the cost if the works were carried out on tho contract system. He averred that numbers of who were incapable of,earning 3s. or is. a day at navvy-, ing were' being taken'on to' railway works. Members' of the-Opposition did not object to the .borrowing of a reasonable /amount,, but decried, the wasteful methods of expenditure which were in vogue. They did not say that tho farmers should bo exempt from taxation, butiwhat' they did say was that'if tunes became very dull those who had no property could'leave the country, the propertyholders'would have to bear.; the whole of tho bnrdens. -..'„--,,> , Mr. ELL (Christchurch. South) spoke on similar lines to what he had done on the' pre-, vious evening.

■ THe'ARTISAN" AND THE: SETTLER. MiV MALCOLM, (Cluthn). said'that Mr. Taylor -had based his argument on the .statement that, the-farmer was .in a better position than the artisan. -. In'order'to pet .a fair, comparison thoy should compare tho.artisan with the settler,- who had just gone on to the: land' without capital, and.not with the. settlers who had a lot of capital; even when they'took, up their'holdings. It must not--.be forgotten also that the artisans were'boltor off <n the/matter, of facilities than the settler.-- The'artisan was mistaken if he thought a settler was well off because he had 200 or 300 acres. If it -had not been for the-high.prices for produco during the past ten years, not-1 per cent, of the farmers would-be independent.... He could instance one estate which could be purchased byilie Government at a smaller price than the owner gave/for,it 29 years ago. -The frozen »ineat trade had been responsible: for much, of the increase that had taken place in the value of land,-and other products. i What had attracted the farmers-to the, Dominion was the hope that they would secure, n freehold; It was mean of any member to grudge the increment of land, to the. hard-working settlers... .. The Government should have put on the-statute-book legislation to prevent .the aggregation of land. ■ .'.'• ' MR. LUKE'S VIEWS. .-, Mr. ''■ LUKE (Wellington .Suburbs) said it seemed as if a town v. country cry was again about to be raised. 'Ho had never been a protectionist, but the tariff should be such as to encourago the people to local industries. It was a disgrace-.fcnat something to' do in New Zealand could not be'found for the young people .who receive a good education here. He thought that a loan proposal should be accompanied with a full schedule of the works, etc., for which the money was needed. Everybody agreed that money- should be borrowed to prosecute the construction of railways.- It was his opinion that the railways were. being managed better now than-they had: been for-years past. '

MR. OKEY ON PUBLIC WORKS. : Mr. OKEY/(Taranaki) supported, a system under which. Government grants would be carried out by the local bodies. If 6uch_ a svstem had been-in vogue during the past'sixteen years there would have been little need for' the - present loan. -.•.-. Government ..money should not be allowed to bo' r expended in districts which were not controlled by local authorities and which were not subject'to rating. In his opinion, local bodies should be invested with additional-powers. . The'. Government should taW over the ,rnain roads throughout the Dominion. . ' •; ••

MR..M'LAREN IS OUTSPOKEN. Mr. (Wellington East) said he did not think the increase in tho".savings banks .deposits showed that the wage-earners had becbn.p enriched of late years to the extent which tlie Prime Minister had indicated. The general impression was that the present Liberal party was only Liberal in name. If it was right to take by tax portion of,the unearned increment of land the smallest holders should bear their, .fair share as well as the largest holders. He was in the. happy "position of .'not.having to ask the Government to undertake works in his electorate. A thorough reform of the local government system was required, and the responsibility for roads and bridges should be more and more' taken from the House, The policy of spending two millions and two and a quarter millions ,of borrowed money every year for public works was going to handicap I the Dominion very seriously in the future. The day. of settlement must inevitably come, and it might come when the country was least prepared to meet it. It would-be-wjser statesmanship.to face the situation now, while the condition of the.country was fairly, though not more than fairly, good. He would.not be surprised if the Dominion had to face next winter conditions..just as 6erious as those faced last winter. Tho Government should make an' honest effort to adopt a more self-reliant policy, and "pay our way as we go." That was the' policy of Mr. Ballance, which had been doparted from since. Mr. NEWMAN (Manawatu) thought -that the people were entitled to more information, than was given by the schedule to tho Loan Bill. He recognised that borrowing was necessary at this stage,'and'so long as it was for reproductive works he would support it. The ■ prosperity of the country, depended on the rapid and efficiont development of tho back ' country. ' Ho was in favour of giving larger powers to.local bodies in connection with public works. .' ' ' ■ ■PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY. V The PEillE 'MINISTER] who,rose to'reply ■ at 11.15 .pim v said that tho restoration of the -.self-reliant, policy would throw, out of employment from 70,000 to 80,000 people, besides : checking development and cerviccsis He denied that he. had applauded the views uttered' .by Mr. Taylor. Mi'. Malcolm,-who. condemned excessive exnsnditure, had published a statement in a Clutha paper last May inviting porsum who desired votw for public wom«> to

confer with him. The member for Bruce hat! moved to reduce an item •on the- most iiiuisy pretext. Not a single item of the .£400,000 for "other public works" could be paid till it was brought down for authorisation in Parliament. What Mr. Allen had asked to be put in the schedule was impossible. Before the session was.over tke member for. Bruce would bo r.j- i plying to Ministers for huiMrous votes tor' his district. He challenged Mr, Dive to give the name of u supporter .of the Government' who, according to Mr. Dive, wasgranted an advance of ,£ISOO by the advances to settlers after the limit; had been- restricted to <£500.The Department told him that it did not know what were the political views of a settler whose' name had been mentioned in connection with this matter.■• In regard to his alleged state-, ment in America that the.Government of -New Zealand ascertained what the people wanted, and then gave it to them, he would soy that he was proud of that statement. To Mr. Fisher he would say that an Independent was-of no use to either party.- From Mr.. Fisher's remarks it was evident ho was following in the • wake of a journal which had just published criticism which ho could onlydescribe as unfair. Was it just to the people who read Hansard, that they should just, get one side of £he question? Why had it not. been stated that between the period 1901-5 and 1908-9 the revenue had rioen by' .£1,800,000 ? Everybody knew that there had been large in-' creases in the cost of education, railways, post and telegraphs, etc. ; due to expansion. There had' also been an increase in the amount of interest on loans. Previously there had not been; redemption funds. • The ■• misrepresentors to whom be referred—and it was his opinion that the misrepresentation was done deliberately—expected the people to be stupid enough to allow-them to state the increase in the expenditure : without giving them the increases ■in regard to the revenue. That was what was called political criticism of the actions of the Government. Mr. Allen had. stated that the Government was borrowing two and a quarter millions for twelve: months, whereas the amount was to cover expenditure over a period of eighteen months—up to September 30 next. "Not Afraid of Criticism." ■; He (Sir Joseph) was not afraid of-criticism, bnt he was against thoso who deprecated the country by misrepresenting facts, which . had, been done on more than ono occasion to the harm of the country. He had already made it clear that the Government was not in want of, money. ' There was ,£526,000 in' cash ,iu the Public Works Fund and a quarter of a' million had still to be borrowed, making a total of V£77fi,ooo, whereas the liabilities up to March 31, if all the works were carried out, would total only .£725,000. It could not be. gainsaid that soma of the members had convoyed the impression that he had moved for urgency because money was wanted. It was impossible for him to have introduced, the Loan Bill earlier.' Ho could carry his- mind back to the time when those who were opposed to the policy of the Government would, move heaven and earth to' assist to get financial legislation through and.; would do their utmost to prevent the fair name of the Dominion being besmirched. ■ Ho ■ thought ho had, made it clear that it was desirable • to raise tho loan bofore. the-end of the month because money was now cheap and plentiful, whereas ;a change-in any direction might bring about an alteration of the conditions. The.third reading of the Bill could not havo taken place-until that day under the Standing- Orders. ";...-.. Mr..Massey: Tou are wrong. ' ■ .' The Prime Minister said' the only- reason why he had raised urgency was to enable the Bill to go through in the general interests of. the country. It was. unfair to.'6tate' that the Government wanted' the money. .

Tho Naval Subsidy. ~.- • ': .r- ---. With regard-10, the naval subsidy, previous payments'had neve' been made on the dates nanv-d in the Billl, '

Mr. Massey: Oh!' " . '■" The Prime Minister: Pardon me.. I know exactly what I am saying. The payments were made in. London always. Immediately after the. passing of the amended legislation the High Commissioner' was instructed to make the payments in the ordinary way. Up to now the' Government had not received the vouchor for payment,'and until the voucher was received "they could not'ekarge the' payment' at; this end.-1 ho superannuation-and classification payments which Mr Massey had referred to were not due till Jouuary next. The quarterly expenditure was no true guide; the onlv true guide, was the accounts "at the end of the year. There was no such'thing as keeping back any-1 : thing out of those things. The Government could not do it>- Tho-law-provided that money could be transferred from one fund to another. If- the Government borrowed a million for public works.and did-not require the'money, for several months, , and if 'money- happened to bo required for one, of the investing accounts, -would it not be bad business if they did not use their, own -monoy, and transfer it for -the purpose? That was all that, was done,- and he thought that it wnsithe right thing to do. With regard to the issuing.of debentures it was provided that the they were- going -to.-ob-.'taiu'niust be floated into inscribed stock. Tho Government were, carrying 'out their work in 'the-best v way possible for,.the country,'and'thoy •had made no mistakp so far, As to all the suggestions of liabilities extending over, four and five years, and the doubt expressed about 'Pdst Office savings being safe, thoro was absolutely nothing in them. The Post Office .Savings Bank last year paid;out'.£9,4oo,ooo to de-' positors. . ...-'.' '■•■'.■'.'•'■•■' ; Mr..-Massey: Oh, nonsense. ■ ■■'..'. Tho Prime Minister: It is correct. Mr. Massey: You are mistaken there. , The Prime' Minister condemned the .sugges--lions of some Opposition organs-that liabilities for four years ahead should be included, and that, because he was compelled to claim urgency to get this Bill through, his action might bo misconstrued, in spito of the explanation he had< given. . . ■' ■Mr. Dive: denied that he had beon "made use of" in connection with the advance from the Advances to Settlers.Office. .He would not give the name, but the.advance was made on September .7, 1908. The Prime Minister said that- no loan exceeding ,£SOO ' was made after tho limitation was fixed in .June, 1908. The third reading of the Bill was passed' .just before ..midnight. <, ELECTIVE EXECUTIVE BILL. Tho Elective 1 Executive Bill (Sir William ; Steward) was the -next order of-the day, but Sir William Steward moved that it be postponed and made an order of the day for November 4. The Prime Minister'then moved tho adjournment, which was agreed to, '*