THE MINING INDUSTRY.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 568, 24 July 1909, Page 3

THE MINING INDUSTRY.

QUESTION OF WATER RICHTS. ■ DEPUTATION TO HON. R. M'KENZIE. MONOPOLIES WILL BE*PREVENTED. 'The regulations with regard to water rights formed the subject •. of i deputation consisting of tho Hon. A. R. Guinness, M.P. for Grey, Mr. T. Y. Seddon, M.P. for Westlaijd, and Mt. G. L. Tao6n, of tho Wostlaad Goldfields Syndicate, to tho Hon. R. M'Kenzie yesterday. ,

Mr. Seddon said that it was felt that tho new regulations were far too stringent. Applicants had to supply plans and specifications, and also deposit £500 before, a grant oould bemado. It was like this: tho applicant hod to do a lot of preliminary work without ovon a promise on the part of tho Government. Ho would emphasise the necessity of tho Government doing something to oricourage the mining industry, which was languishing on tho West Coast, particularly in Ks district. If tho regulations wore reapropositions would bo' taken up on Rimu Flat alone which would give employment for . 500 workers.

Mr. M'Kenzie: 'Who said so? . . Mr, Seddon replied that there was one area of three thousand acres of payable ground, whilst there,were other large areas of just as promising a nature. Ho wont,on to say %it the deposit required, tho amount of information as to the proposed work, land the charge for water were ail excessive. Ifthe Mont d'Or claim at Ross bad to pay all tho charges asked, it would - never pay a dividend. '

Mr. M'Kenzie: Why not? Mr! Seddon answered that because the company, got - water at a nominal figure'; thoy merely took up a license' and paid the ordinary fees for water.- Tho Department was asking something like £13 per head per annum; which would - run the Te Aroha ppoplo into £2800 yearly. ' Mr. M'Kenzie: When you make a Statement like that I want to know how you arrive at the figures. '' " ; Mr. Tacori said that they had to generate 19,000 h.p; to lift 200 head of water the required height. , _ Mr. M'Kenzie remarked that the application in. question , was for about 9500 h.p., which would run into only £1378. • Mr. Seddon:: On what, basis? .' Mr. : M'Kenzie: Three shillings per h.p. per annum. , ; , ; . v . Views of Mr. Culnness.' Mr. Guinness, who was the next speaker, said that he was riot present merely to support the Application to which reference had beshmade... He wjslied to put the position as affecting' thoso interested ..in . the . industry throughout the Dominion, hilt in particular residents of his OwA district. - : ■' ' • . iMr. M'Kenzio: I want to clear up a little matter, Mr. Seddon and Mr. Tacon aro appealing on behalf of a syndicate which wants : water-power at To Aroha; you (Mr. Guinness) say you aro here in another capacity. J Mr. Seddon : Mr. 'Ta'con ' represents the syndicate, whilst Lam hero'on behalf of my district. ; jMr. ! MlKenzio: The deputation must' be either for'one thing or the other. - I won't hev two ; deputations at one time.- V During further' discussion ; on the point, Mr'. Seddon emphasised the fact that 'he had raiseid the Te Aroha, matter simply because jt was the first application, and the area was in his district. ' ■

Mr.'" Guinness went on to say -that the Government found the cost of developing the •water-powoi- itself would be so great that it had amended the Act so as to provide that rights might bo obtained on license by .companies arid other private syndicates! It had been stated by Mr. M'Kenzie's predecessor that it Tvould cost £20,000,000 to develop the water-power in various parts of tho Dominion, and, the Goveniment were -unable -'..to undertake : the scheme.. Under the Act therfe was no power to 'make regulations, but the Government could impose conditions. Mr. ' M'Kerizio:. We hqve merely notified the terms on which 1 would be prepared to recommend the Government to issue licenses.

Mr; Guinness /raised- objections. to the stipulation for a £500 'deposit. It was not fairy he ; said, thnt; the .'deposit should .bo hold until the work was completed.-. If. tho was.not done' ,witliin, a stipulated time .the deposit (it was provided) should bo forfeited.- He next-expressed the opinion-that the proposed charge for the use or. tho water was . exorbitant, Tho mining pcoplo had never been asked to pay a brass farthing forwater which was simply running. to waste. There! was moro water wasting on tho West Coast than in any other- portion of the Dominion.of equal size. . • Mr, jM'Kenzie: I .don't admit that tho ,water is going to-waste. " /' ■ ■ ' A Very Valuable Assat. Mr. Guinness: It.is.going, to yvaste . as against" being utilised, for mining.. !■' : i ;Mr. M'Kenzio: I look upon it as a very Valuable'asset.:; ., 1 Mr.; Guinness:,Not'until it is developed: ; Mr. M'Kenzie: 1 You : might just as well say that""coal'is ; being wasted until it is worked, f ' . . ~ ! . /Mr. Guinness: So we, do. ' Mr. M'lCenzie: Well, wo don't give it away, at'anyrate. ' , • • Mr. Guinness then contended', that the proposed charges woro too stiff. '. ' Mr. M'Kenzie: Can you make a comparison between the cost of developing, power in this way and by steam?' ■ Mr. Guinness replied that he could imagine the charges being so; high if the ; Government were; themselves developing the power. This, fit had been stated, tho Government woro unable to do. ,

Mr. M'Kenzie: But' Mr. Hall-Jones's views must-not:be taken as a precedent. .. : _ Mr. Guinness declared that, personally, he would sooner ' see the Government develop the power' 4 .From what, ho knew of the financial position of, the; country it was, -however, hopeless to expect the Government to under-, take'the'Work.': ' ■: • ;

;'Mr. M'Kenzie: I' am now busily engaged on a very Marge irrigation scheme.in; Central otag«. . ■ ';■ - - *~

Mr. Soddon':'; It won't help mining. Mr. M'Kenzie;: Yes,- if neededv - , . Mr. Guinness remarked that ho had quoted the mosti. recent-exposition, of the ; Government's policy, on the subject. What Mr, M'Kenae; had'just told them was a new development of which he had not previously heard'.. 11l the circumstances, the Government ought, he contended,'to assist private enterprise as ,much as possiblo. Mr. M^Kenzie: You; want us to grant a monopoly.-, against jthoso who have to generate steam power.' Mr.'Guinttess; I ask you; not as Minister, bnt asa of a mining district, to assist;; the industry. ■ Mr. M'Kenzio: But you have come to see me as aj; Minister. My business in that capacity 'is to,' look after the interests of the whole community,, and to see that it is not fleeced by syndicates. . Government and Private Enterprise. Mr. Guinness observed that tho Minister should also assist .to develop |he resources of the country after seeing that the country was not being, "fleeced," as 1 he termed it, by syndicates. , He (Mr. Guinness) felt that the present regulations were such as to discourage private enterprise: Altogether the Government'' had spent £432,132' in waterraces, of which amount £356,999 tfas ex-, pended on the. West Coast! and it did not get. revenue sufficient to pay the interest on the outlay. That was surely a good argument in support of his contention that every assistance should be given to private 'companies who were unable to work their area by means_ of the gravitation system. If the proposition in question were a success, it meant a new era: for the mining industry. ?: He, contended that tho Government was safe-guarded against anything in the nature of monopoly by the conditions under the Act. It had tho right to take plants at bare cost, and could terminate the licenses at any time, and did not require to pay goodwill. Before'it got a lioense a company had to do too^muoh. 'Mr. M'Kenzie: .Do you say, as a lawyer, that fho stipulations are not necessary? • Mr. Guinness : What I say is that the burden would, be' too great if the had also to pay such a heavy deposit. Mr. M'Kenzie: I can't see that there is too great a burden on those who 'intend to

Mr. Guinness .expressed tho opinion that the deposit sh'ould. not,bo requires, and that Boveraf other .regulations should ho modified.He felt that Parliament would not have passed the Act if tho conditions had been inserted in .tjicra ,as clauses. It was a pity that tho Goldfields Committor had not the power to review them. ~ .

As a result'-of another discussion'as to the objocts.of tho .deputation, it was .decided that, as Mr. Taoon-merely represented a syndicate, ho should have to approach tho Minister at another time". : t.--';',: - . , , THE-MINISTER IN REPLY. Tho Hon. R. M'Kenzio, in reply, said that tho amount.;of deposit required under the water-powor ; regulations was only a small item to a "company which meant to proceed to work. U any company wished a coal loase on tlio-West.Coast, it had to deposit £1000, and subsequently pay a royalty of sixpenoe perVftm. ,- Mt- Gtiliiness: ( lt all depends, on the area. Mir. M'Kenzio: If you caro to reduce tho number of horse-power you require, tho deposit, would be only'£2 10s. 'Mr. Seddon: £2'los.p ,

Mr. M'Kenzio: You have been barking up the wrong trco'all; the time. The minimum is £2 10s,, whilst the maximum is £500. Resuming,',tho!'Minister pointed out that applicants for water-power rights wtero in an analogous__position to. peoplo taking up coal areas. He mentioned that a ton of coal would not, lift, ono head of water for eight hours. Coal/was lying idle, just as water was. No.'ono would contend that coal did not belong to tho State. . Mr. Guinness": "Under a Crown grant it would pass from tho Government. Mr. M.'Kenzie: Wo don't do that. Mr.-'Guinness': gave such a right at Blackball. '

Mr. M'Kenzio: That was in tho time of another Government. ' ...

.. Mr. M'Kenzio proceeded to say that coal for genei&ang.'Atoo -h-p. , would cost £10 to £12 per aiinum.' .Uildei; tho water-power regulations,- tho.. licensee .was to bo charged only 3s. pfer h.p.per annum. Originally the charge was Cxod;,at;'ss.',- but he'nad; it"'reduced to 3s.vfor. mining purposes. Once the poweor was put"- into operation it could be used ■ for anything:'' Sawmills could bo run by oheaply than bv steam. Whoever .rights under the regu-. lations would ge£ tho cheapest power in the world. ' Tho' Had to b© c&Teful because it ''might - jvant - the power for the railways.;:.;,''..v.-.',;.'' 1 , Mr. S^doriJ.There.'are plenty , of. streams on the West Coast.' ; Electricity vorsus Stoam. : Mr. M'-Ksnzie 'declared.that the Government would-riotbe .doing right- if'- it- made- a free giftof ;Ahe 'rights to anybody. Not long ago tho Waihi. people had tried to get hold of. larjgo falfein. tho .vicinity. . Although tJhey : woro prepared to. pay more than those present thought-. <ivas, sufficient, tho late' Prime Minister would: not listen to tho- proposal! Mr. Guinrioss t * liad. said that' tho Government had no money'to "develop the power! •He (tho Minister) could see a hole through, a ladder' just' as ' well -as'::anyone else. ' . Mr. Guinness was. apparently laying-; the foundations. to' ask-'; the Government, to start a largo electrical. scheme on 'the West Coast. This :was the' firstvobjection thati had .been raised in caiuioction with the deposit, and ho would say _at once that the Government had no intention' of doing'away with it. It was, however!; prepared to return the de-. posit as soon as a company had done a roasohable anfount of work. ,Thoro was no necessity to retain the deposit if a company showed' .iwcjre.'bona' fide. :• The aim of the Goveramen't was^to try 'to.'put holders of water -rights 'on' a footing witlh those who had tpJ;gogerate. power by means of steam.' It 'was',wginaDy. intended to make . the deposit much rgreater,' and lie had onco or. twice tried it reduced. He, was perfectly satisfied'that ,they had ,110 grievance I as' regards! the regulations which Mr. Guinness, who had long experience, had described 86' a wise precaution. The only clauses which Mr. Guinness disapproved of were, unimportant: . .• Mr. Guinness: They aro the most lmpor'tantipoints.V'V Mr. M'Kenzio: I call them trifling matters.;, ■ ■ i. - ; . Mr. Guinness:. Are you prepared to provide, that the deposit would be returned when a .sufficient amount of work has been completed?' ..., . v.. Mr. M'Kenzio: As soon as a reasonable amount of ; work has been done.

Mr. Sodden :. ; Is. there any cbanco of the regulations being referred to the -Mines Committee? -•• , 1 1 . Mr. M'Kenzie': It is not a mining matter. Mr. Seddon,: I think it is very much so. 'Mr. M'Kenzio: I don't propose to make cast-iron regulations. "■ '

Mr. Guinne'ss?V ; You should " submit them for- the consideration ~o( • a committee of members of Parliament! Mr. M'Kenzio ; You had hotter ask Parliament if they wish that done. • Mr. Seddon: Wo.could.get plenty of eyidenco. ■ /Mr. M'Kenzie.: Ono can get evidence about anything. ■■ . Concession to'; First Successful Company. Mr. Seddon.:,Thoro-is also the question of rent. . Mr. M'Kenzie: <1 don't consider it excessive. The first applicant/- who complies . with tie' regulations .will not be charged rent for three yoars. ~ \ Mr. Soddon: That is a concession for which we must. thanklyou. : ; ' ; ' ■' Mr. Guinness ■ suggested that applicants should be required to advertise tho date an which they .•would, 1 inakev the application and' other^particulars.'', . 1 Mr. : M'Koime..replied.that he intended to aU applications on to the wardens, who would hear .'objections, 'take evidonce, and have power to advertise them. . .' The/ position,; with; regard to the application - J-, of/j Westi.and ; Groldfielaa Syndicate';Vaathen mentioned 'by Mr. Ta'con, ■ wnoj-. pointod ' that the . application was made nearly two. years ago, before the regulations iwer;d i made.' The syndicate had, ho'continued, 'already spent £1000 in prospecting, etc) ; 'They i had : been ■ encouraged to go; ori'by the Prime Minister and Mr. M'Kerizie's'predecessor. He urged that favourable!;; consideration should bo given to their .request':.'tiiat, no; deposit should bo required, seeing vthat:_they wero the pioneer 'compaiiy.\"7'.Tho. generation of. electricity, was not the'objcct J ;for .which tlio .company* had been formed.. ' •

Mr. M'Kcnzie,. in reply, said that anything a company the, way of prospecting could not.be, taki'h. into consideration. There .was nothing "to; prevent. a company . from : changingjiho .'objects , for' which' it was primarily.fbrri^dt/nv^.. ' Mr. Seddon V;"Is-there no restriction ? Mr; M'Kenzie:; Nono.-at all. During -further' remarks, . Mr. M'Kenzie said' that'it .;shpulcl bo'no hardship on the company If the Government gayo" way'in'that instance, it would bo asked togive/;.w.ay : .'all' along, tho lino. As they well v he^ r would do' told that it was done bccafeef. I ''it, was_;,a West Coast, matter. (Laughter.).. Mr. GumndssjCOnlyVa naughty' member from anotHer'vparf .w-qUld say that, . ' In conclusion,. Mr., M'Kenzie assurod tho deputationjst' that;"; as. soon as.a reasonable amount of-work was done, the deposit would be returned.'. ■ ( 1 In a letter from Hobart, Mr. R. M'Nab says that; regarding his forthcoming publication on .tho'; history ;of Southern , New Zealand he has had very-good luck in his seairch at'flobart, -arid'i under'some of tho headings He'has had phenomenal success. He intends to'.put in>a few days -in Melbourne in research work, and also in Sydney, leaving Sydney on-August 2 on his trip to England, via Vancouver. . 'Messrs. Dwa'n. Bros., Wellington, advertise a nnmbCr of hotels, for sale in this oity and elsewhere. . Mrs. ' Mathewson's,. HannahV Buildings, Lambton Quay, '.advertises her opening sale, comprisingi a sppoidl line of children b millinery. "■' At 11 a.m'. «nd 2 pJm. to-day, Mtasrs. Levien, Sballorass, and Co., will sell & large quantity of fancy goods and cutlery, at. their rooms, Willis Street The. roods are the stock of a fancy.goods store,/and'will' be sold without reserve. On .Monday the sale will be again continued to effect a 'complete clearance. Messrs. Gualtor, Dykes, and Co. report thai at their auction sale, held on Thursday alternoon, tho property submitted, at the Creeoont, Bosenjath,. jr» »14 to Mw. hovtet. Hancox,