LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 535, 16 June 1909, Page 4

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THE DREADNOUGHT OFFER. TWO MEMBERS OPPOSE THE PRO-* , ' POSAL. : When, members of. thcuLegislativo Council i -fcet'.yesterday,' it was announCed.'th'at a'mea- j ■ eagovhad"been reoeivcd from the House'of Representatives stating-', that it.Jhad by" reso-,' lutioii confirmed the Creadnought 'offeT andrequesting tho concurrence of tho Council therein.. J-:' : C-'.',, : Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Dr. Findlaj) :thon;,. moved that the resolution be considered. Tho Hon. J. RIGG OYellington) mentioned ..that, ho had. already given notice, of- a motion disapproving of tho offer. He would not . object to .tho course it was proposed to adopt r »f ho -wero allowed to movb,an amendment. SPEECH BY THE ATTORNEY-OENERAL. : Dr. FDfDLAY said ho did not think it > necessary to say much in regard, to the reso- : lutipp,-,.. .It, .would-be a poor tcompliment to the of - members: if 1 . 'ion,: a- lengthy .-speech on..the! subject, ; seeing, that..tlio woro - (l .The:gift was one which in- : volved w!:{iddition to the financial . burdOns of tho pebplo of Now Zealand. : Such a quesfaW;*phou]d-;be answered by thoso who ■ te Hhe : TKX)plo.'-: Tho ; leferenco of the, matter 'tb: the Council' was 6tTictly.coirititutiomJ!y:perhaps'.' ; noti''he(»s ; -' ■ sary, but from motives of ■ courtesy it had • been sent to the Council for its concurrence. < What members had to consider was'whether .. Bt tho-;piesont* time—and- independently.; of .'.what.-.was proposed to be .done' now—Now Zealand, was contributing "its T fair.' 'shSife . enamel tho.. Motherland to ..maintain, the. ,■ supremacy of tho seas..-Thero,Jay m.tho.pro- . jK)sal nothing •country-might fairly be ,asked ,w. :: \Tho Hon> E; .-l'RASK" , (Nelson) seconded tho'motion-.' ! •' '. •* •" 1 ,Tho-Hon. J.:Rigg (Wellington) said.'-he would movG his amendment. 1 , k •The Hon. G. J. Smith'jlCanterbury) :. But ,:,.it : is.'a^difMt' l neg4tiv6'.-' " .'-'V ' ''" rt ' j, ■ 7-Mf;^B.igg':;ilfcis. mombor to movo a direct- negative.- • ' HON; 'Jvi'RIGG: MOVES AN AMENDMENT., ■ffiba 'Hon: ; moved; by woyiioh i ..amehdment; , 'sthat after, "tho word Af 'tliat'*' Tbe - :followipg. '.6ubsti|ulj«l:-r; .. . ' v ;. : AiiyThati'this " Council (disapproves; of Hhe: ).i'. - - offer, to the' British Government of ; • fQlly-e'quipped' - battleship ■ of.'tho, Dread- ■■■:•. nought-typo—two •if ,necessary-r*made by tho Government of-New Zealand, for the following-reasons: ,(1) , That, it is •utt«-.- • justifiable oxtravagance. (2) ■Thai'.s^.v)Mi|{ - as wo:aro, ift.;debt,>:and depending>.iOn ' •:borrowed. money. .ior:- the - 'development • or our own country, it. is-:au immoral act. (3) That wo become ridiculous,.svljOn,' it is lieccssary'for. us to whom wo iinakoftho-gift .of -■jthe'-'mone^nece'ssary^'.fbvpayJrfoKitV- 'y\ '• ■ That Grent.Britain can-wfell affotd .to -pay... >.» : ; ::\(s);That;^he.. proposal. organised)-':,for £UniJsi r.;r!..:{Str'. tomarks ;by„stating X;.:''thatvhe' , -cpdld..vridt}.fcdriciir-vwith''-tlio"fView''of.-Dr. l' lndlay./that tho Counoil-had ■ no- right . to oxpress; ilu opinion regarding' the oxpendicure of public 'money. Dr.- Jfmdlay-could not havo studied.tho questiou. of the rights, ind' pnviloaos'.:of,, the Council. Tho .right' .. of ; tho Houso of 'Lords to liavo a: . regard to:-:«uppties -was ono , that' hnd rhcen ; jealously guarded;.by -the-Housos-of ■ for many centuries, 'l'lio Eouse-'of»Lords -.- /.could, - if; it-liked, Jayraside i thev-appropria-tions. So: long'as. tho Council , had the'ipro- : cediiro of the -Houso of Lords for an "ex- • ample, it should exorciso its'opinion oil every question relating- to tho expenditure of pub-. . lie moneys. ; ':" •- Offer Was a Mischievous One. V.. Stripped . of; nil extraneous, matters,. the ; question 'Was::>;pid;(the -.;or.wrong iuJniaKiig.-the'pffer^df-Mie 1 ships? Ho;intendtd-to-show that .the action : : - was would '..t->W^.hav^;J^»i^^en ,: baa.:toe'-'&oiV . : ,;boeri- in pii^se'ssion - 'of:-. full iriforinatidn .on ■ naval: mattors^in - Great -'Britain.' VHo,: traversed the moiiio.: which.-, the' Pruno Min- ' ister Hsent-'ldut'; td bqts' Vof. the 'Cab-' : 'not,' prior.."-.tp!;.tho".-"iiiaking-:l.bf-v.th"<j>iDlFeriV""--it-»'as' stated:' in'/ ''tlfeife* .is ■' at tho :'pi'esenfomomont a .'(jrisis- in- the tif- ' . , lairs of Empire;?|,';;'As.V;.nmTtter'of';;fact,' : % '••.-'»as not. a -'crisis'-theh; ''ahtLthero -had .'not been a 'criws';sinwi/:v.PurtWS ;: .iti-';wM- stiitod ■ .: in tho .memo,: that tho sitiiatioh in; England Jo-day is 'ono of tension and serious apprehension. That, statement was equally inoor- . ■ root.- i '"•*.■ • . " A- Member.:-Absolutely': correct'.'T,'' r, .' Mr. Rifeg went on.to .say tliat iho moring . point in connoction -witli :the "scare" was the Croydon oleotion.- ■■Tlie,-:drigin';Of:'the cry-for extra Dreadnoughts was a,"party', dodge adopted by tho Unionists to 'crush tho Lib. ~ erals. The' Unionist pajpers wh'ichihad : tho scaro wero tho papers which had backed. .: up tflie Boer war, aiul iTOro responsible for, : the., news that filtered through;,to the colon- - ies. .It looked very muoh as if.tho -NeW Zea- . land Govornmont had acted precipitately for , foar that Gomo other part of tno. Empire might tako: away its opportunity*.' ''', •:- A Member: Others followed their ; oxamplo. . Mr. Ragg replied; that the oilhor -parts had • been a long timo in coming up to tho scratch, and that ono' country had to wait , for a chango of Government. (The offer could not be refused by any .Govenimcii't in powor because tlie . general, desire was to the • ■ bonds of union closer.' , -

What was the Moral Effect?/:; Could any member truly' say it was-pos--itble for tho offer to have any moral effect? If it was 5 intended to impress Germany, in/tho .' importance ..of Now Zealand it /must ~ have tailed. Germany must knOw tho measaro of j New : /sealand'sr impecuniosity.:••Aa.-.New/ Zea> v.

;land .would ■ have,; to . borrow tlie money to Jmako tho gift,' it made her look - supremely [ridioulous. It was.Jus opinion that ;the gift had , bad a distinctly immoral. effect. . The . outburst which had fol-. ! lowed..thoma.kiiig "of, fee; gift was like the jifig(Msm,of.'.'th'o musio'halls of London, which , ivas passmg-in New Zealand in 'tho namo of ; Imperialism. The effect of- this jingoistici ImJperialism was to put man against man, friend :agamst and .to refuse one tho right to ■ hold which was different from that voiced .in the daily press. \Vhat was the , worthi of the congratulations which Sir Joseph' 'had received from end to ond of the Domm;ion?' Thero woro people in,this country who 'would congratulate! the " Govornmont \jpon i anything; The-absolute toadyism and wanit iof principleof ;somopeople: were,with a view ;that :would get something in.return. ; There wore,, ho admitted; a number of genluino. Imperialists who approved tfco offer, but : they had been oamed away. If the Govern- 1 inient wcait .ito°;: the couatry it would bo, wiped out. ~y.- ' A voice: By whom?. The people? ~ Mr.Jtigg said he. know,of no question that -had.done so much to,,offend tho democracy— :the masses. The views of the Opposition did ( not v tho .opjnions of,.tho people on :.tlie:'q-a^ti6tf.' i .'XHJa\opmion was! that '.the.- Op- : position' HM 'always 'hopelessly (with' tta Government- in regard, to. questions '.of- the' kind.' ! Its' past career was such that it . would put itself in a ridiculous position opposed,the. offer. The Opposition had been dragged at the chariot wheels of •tho Government- for years on this question of ImpDrialism.v;;lt:\ras;remarkablo that they had not yet found it out. -A' Member: It does not say much for them. v Mr. j-Ejgg :' Some people make: a mistako 'and-stick'-te; it;'" ' : . • ;No Necessity,for,-tho .Gift. ■' . : * ■ • r i ;R«uming,^Mr.v--Rigg.'said- that,on. this occasion tho press had beon captured in an , astute ,manner. -A,.confidential telegram, signed by, tho Prime, Minister, had been sent to,editors all over the Dominion; Tho impression at the-time was: that the Government was ill possession of secret informawas imminent. Ho did iiot believe; that [there was one editor 'iftNeiv say that: thoreever ;; tyais'; any" crisis^that- thero .was any , necessity for the expressed his own private opinion. He' believed that. Sir Joseph ; had been .misled :.:tbat. his action had misled thd country.'- .If the Government went to tho--coiiritrjj; .it would find that tho majority of tho poople-had 'lost confidence in them, i When hewould not hesiI tato ,to., ma|so any . sacrifice on. behalf of tho : .been made innocently, ;.but r the,»rcsul%'Was.'r'ai.bad one.-' Ho hoped tliat in'the (future. a sailor Imperialism would ; . mfluenqev.-ihe iGdvorn'ment • and-the people, .Nothing did»:so:';muoh/to 'degrade the "Em- ; pire than .the...efforts ..of jono; class, ; of - tho ; that tho Gov- , erhment jshould m.iko itself better acquainted Jr-with.'th'^^ual^sitioiK'.''-:

. : VIEWS-OF MR. SCOTLAND. Tho Hon. T. SCOTLAND (Taranaki); in .seconding .tho'-fcrrtmidißtOKtf. congratulated Mr. -.P-pS ?! 1 tjiQ. Jiiprai' courage' he had displayed in opposing the offer. Ho would impress on fellowrmembers .that=.Great' Britain -was not in danger .from Germany.oi:' any other nation. During his lifotimd" thfcfe'. had been.! many scares. Tho motion Would, ho felt, bo .passed.- It seemed'-as if tho Primo Minister had. ■ been; consulted;as;-'fo: when, the ; Council matfer. He re-' thg'jCpiincil' had'a 'certain -amount of A Member:' '"'But!no respect for anyone else. . • " Mr.' Scotlaiid -. An'd l romemljer a day when • vbe dictated to' by, the "Primb-Minisfor o^- ; tlio ; day.,-.; ..f;. e RESULT OF THE DIVISION. v ,...\yhon thei'qitestioiijWas. put that tho words' should stand 'pjrirjof: ; the mgtioi^,,twovoices - were raised dissent.''' "' v,. •; ■• ; ■. .. :". r Tlio result : pf; the'divisidn' was as' under ,:• ,For.uthe:_«roendm6nt.L... M«ssrs. v Rigg and Scotland. ' ; : '. Against '_ the , amendment (26):. Messrs. Baldey, Beehan, Camoron, FuidlayisGeprgOj Hatn'is,: Holmes, Jenkmson, Johnston;-Jones;-KollVf'.'Loughnan, M'Cardlo, M'Lean.Marshall, O'Rorko, 'Paul, Eerei, < Smith,' Thompson,, Trask™'nd<'.Wigram:«' • >. t j5 l ho'Hon.ißu'F.<AV ; lGltAM (ChriKtohurchV spblie'iKriefly'jin support-of tho motion. Ho .suggestion that the 'W .ev.er interiff 'winnection^"inth Iniperial' ;politics. fThCToKoduldfjfe'e no'•'-doubt vasi-- to the moral cct^if-itH<ivoffer- t." f 5 y\ ~ j:.. . "^Bk.imot ; b'ix4>W'.^hferi ! '..ogreed to; on the .voices. ... .. . :>r'ltnvas agreed' that sliould meet ■again'■'at^•loJ3o^this.<morninß,' , : 1 I