HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 48, 20 November 1907, Page 9

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

V NEW BILLS. The., .following now Bills were introduced end road a first time:—Water Supply Act Amendment Bill fflon. E. M'Nab,- and the

Reserves and Other Lands Disposal and Public Bodies Empowering Bill, 1007 (Hon. R. M'Nab).

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL AMENDMENTS. The amendments niodo in the Public Sorvioe Classification Bill by tTio Legislative Council wore agreed to after a. brief disousaion. , The Premier explained the amendments made to the Divorce and Matrimoniel Causes Act. Somfe members demurred at tho extension of tho tinie a person requires to bo immured in a lunatic asylum before divorao can b© granted, from seven years to ton, but the Premier replied *.kat if mombers liked to moke an alteration '■/ must take the responsibility. There a'-good deal of objection to tho Wtion of tho clause at all in tho Bill."

Tho amendments were agreed to. The amendments to tho Public Health Act were accepted, with the exception of a small proviso. Managers wore sot up to oonfor in regard to this with managors from the Legislative Council. The amendments made to the Co-operative Compuuies Bill wvre agreed to. NATIVE LAND SETTLEMENT. . In moving tho second reading of the Native Lands Settlement Bill, tho Hon. J. Carroll (Native Minister) asked the House to confine itself in the discussions to the matters dealt with thorein—tho settlement of the lands—and notj as was generally the custom when tho Native question was raised, with everything relating thereto. He went on to say that tho area investigated by die Native Lands Commission amounted to 656,731 acres, and it was recommended that 66,028 acres bo sold, 280,737 acres be leased; and that the remainder of the total be reserved for occupation by Maoris, Two Proposals. ■ Originally, the proposal was that all land already reported on by the Commission arid to ho reported upon in tho next twelve months should bo subject to tholiill. In the Select Comraitteo, however, the scope was confined to the lande already dealt with. He would ask in Committee -whether tho original proposal would not bo preferable (The Premier: Hear, hear.) In view of tho clamour for tho settlement of Nativo lands, tho unbiassed mind must lend itself to the proposal to make the Bill operative over the land already reported on and to be reported on. (The Premier: Hear, hear.) That was the vital part of tho Bill. There wore largo areas, continued the Minister, not bringing ' profit to tho owners, and not settled, and the Bill would bring about the utilisation of theso waste areas. Especially in tho north was this measure required, bocauso ovory wasted year moant tho sotting back of the country and tho retardation or the question of Nativo land settlement. The Bill would safeguard transactions in Nativo lands, and contained provisions generally i that would assist settlement. -. Tho Nativo policy of the Government had been outlined in tho Financial Statement, and the present Bill was essentially on those lines. Though the Bill was only a first instalment/it was well to havo a declared' policy for the outset. It would give the Commission greater confidence in its future work. Next year it would be necessary to consolidate ell Nativo Land Acts. (Hear, hear.)

Future Legislation. So far, in the. desire to satisfy tha land Lunger, only one side of the native question bad been studied. They had yet to consider the best interests of the natives—how they could bo settled, on their own lands ancl given equal chßnces.^*i'tlj''th§V, i i;Hrqpßn:iisV -'.'i.TJiis .matter', must :en,gage.:.'attent]pn,'.bcfpr,e'lppg. An important aeiftur& of., tlie-Bill was ■ that where land was set apart for salo or lease, the Crown had the first right at a price agreed-.upon, and the; land became Grown land immediately and subject to the Crown land laws. Hβ again urged that the land to be dealt with by the (Jommission should be includod in the scope of the Bill. It would mean a total area of 1,500,000 acres. : In conclusion, he said, lot this Bill bo passed for the present, and next year have a large and comprehensive measure; (Opposition laughter.) The Government would strain every nerve to pass the Bill this session. He moved the second reading.

Mr. Herrles Objects. ' Mr. Hemes prefaced his remarks by saying that without reflecting on the Commission or its porsonnel, he thought tho Government had done wrongly in appointing a member of tho judiciary bench or a member of Parliament to the Commission. It was wrong in principle, one reason being tho extra salaries they would draw. As to the Chief Justice, it was known that ho had taken keen interest in the nativo land question when a member of tho House, and held fixed views on the question; and so also did the member for the Eastern Maori district; and those gentlemon wero therefore tho wrong members to place on tho Commißaion. Consequently, the J present Bill would.be approached with a certain amount of antagonism.. The Bill was the best epitome he had yet seen of tho different swings of the pendulum o£ tho nativo lands question. Two Parties. There wore two parties on this question. Firstly, thore were those who wanted to keep tho native,in a state of tutelage—have him controlled by the Boards. This liill, carried out. the principles of that policy. Native lands had to bo handed over to the Boards whether the nativos liked it or not. The Maoris, according to tho member for the Eastern Maori district., had submitted to this in the past on account of the cry of the pakeha for land. But it was wrong to satisfy the pakeha at the expense of tho native., The second party, to which he (Mr. Horries) belonged, were those who favoured placing tho Maori on tho same footing in every way as tho European. At the same time they did not believe in absolnto " free trade" in nativo lands. Let tho natives manage their own affairs under proper restrictions. The nativo question would nevor be solvod while the system of tutelago obtained. Mr. Horries continued that he was against allowing the scope of the Bill to extend to land not yet dealt with by the Commission. Tho Nativo Minister himself had said this was merely an instalment of legislation, and why commit themselves to future lands. Objections to the Bill. Referring to the Bill, he said everything had to bo done with tho consent of the Minister; the Native Department had a reputation for slowness, and with this provision in operation he was afraid very little progress would bo made during the year. As to tho Boards, very few would be found capable of doing what was required under the Bill unless strengthened. Ho was in favour of delaying tho Bill for another year to onablo the natives' voico to be heard. Though the native question was an old one, the compulsory principles of tho Bill wero new and tho nativos had a right to express their opinion. Mnny petitions had already been recoived from the nativos against tho'Bill.

Mr. Ngata's Views. Mr. Ngata (a momber of the commission said it would not bq proper for him to oxpress an opinion regarding the Bill, His concern was in rogard to tho settlement of tho land when dealt with. Ho referred to the recommendation of tliq Commission that 66,000 acres should ho available for salo and 280,000 acres for lease. Tho Houso might say the Commission with the exception of one bloc]; in tho Ring Country tho Commission in oadi case had followed the dosiro of tho Natives. It was a pood indication as to what tonuro tho Maoris themselves would like The Native Ideal. Tho Maori ideal was opposed to the whole of the legislation since 1865. Ho was speaking simply as a Maori. The Maori ideal wns to be left alone wjth unrestricted freedom in dealing- Tho innovation of individuali3ation vsas not tho Maori ideal; he knew

nothing about tho cry that "Every man's homo was his castle." Tho process of legislation over a courso of yoars had, as Mr. Berries had said, driven tho Maori into a corner, biit tho time had now arrived when thoy should say what should bo dono with tho land to bo set aside for the Maoris. When tho Bill came down ho was opposed to it. It gavo tho Maori tho crumbs after tho Europeans wore provided for,, But sinco then tho Natives had been considered by the insertion of certain clauses./ Referring to tho Maori land legislation in tho past, and tho evils of private alienation, ho said the Statute Books wero packed with laws validating titles and to acquire Native lands was a process for a rich man. Human nature was human nature, whether in Native or European, and very often " shady " methods had hud to be adopted to obtain a signature to a title.

If it was found that tho Maori persisted in Iwing idle and was found wanting, even within tho next fifteen years, ho would not oppose any legislation that tho- party in power might bring in, even if it included the right of European settlors on Maori lands to purchase tho freehold. Ho believed, however, that tho Maoris could become fairly respeotehle farmois. There wore many Maoris fanning under difficulties, without satisfactory titles or monetary assistance, but working hard and doing fairly woll in tho Bay of Plenty and tho Giaborno district. What was best in tho Maori should ho assisted and encouraged, and tho Government should adopt the Commission's recommendation to appoint farming instructors to go amongst them. Hβ held that whero the Maoris had individualised the land to such an extent that only one or two were left in the title, they should bo allowed to do protty well what they liked with it, subject to one or two restrictions as to papakainga reserves, otc. The Maori Land Board should be subsidised by tho Stato in rospect of the public works thoy carried out, and the State should also assist with cost of administration. His position as a member of the late Royal Commission would preclude him from voting T.l tHe second reading of tho Bill. The Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Massey declared that the fault in the past had been with the Natives, who had adhered to the wretched communistic system. Until tho natives had individual opportunities as the Europeans they would novor better themselves. Hβ paid a tributo to the work of the, Nativo Alfairs Committee; and like Mr Hemes, objected to a judge of the Supreme Court occupying a seat on a Com-; mission and receiving emoluments that might affect his independence. As to certain provisions in tho Bill, especially regarding the Boards, he queried whether tlio Natives knew any thing about them. Ho criticised the bringing down of one of tho most important Bills at this time in the session, and he had observed that afternoon that only two Native and three European membors or tho House, out of thirty-six present, had listened to the Ministerial explanation of tho clauses. He was glad a consolidating Bill was to be brought down next year; it should be down this session. Tho present Bill merely tinkered with the question. A very improper system prevailed;at present in Native land transactions owing to the intricacies of tho laiy, and immediate legislation'was required to end that. He would never be satisfied until a system of closer settlement came about, and Maori and European had land on tho freehold tonuro.

The Premier, . The Premier, after congratulating Mr.. Ngata on his earnest speech, said ho would endeavour in Committee to onlargo the scope of tho Bill as to'.the lands to bo dealt-'with' in accordance with the original intention.- As to the remarks concerning certain members of the Commission, ho referred to precedents of tho past to show that a Supremo Court judge had sat on a Commission, and in the House were several members who hud also previously sat. Sir William Russoll himself Lad onco been a menibor of a Commission. By (endeavouring to limit the Bill to the area already reported on by the Commission, the member for the Bay of Plenty would restrict .the available land to a comparatively small portion; and that with,tho cry ringing through tho Dominion for moro land. It would rotard settlement for, twelve months.

Mr. Massey: ; Hovr much will bo settled.this day twelve months? ' '.' "■ ". '. ." The Premier: is not tho point. Ho .wont on to say that hore was a great policy intended for the good of tho .Maoris, and that in the matter of settlement the lasting benefit "of the. Maori was the uppermost desire. He contended that Mr. Hcrrioa, in spite of his statements to tho contrary, was undoubtedly an advocate of unrestricted freo trade in Native lands. Ho was in favour of Natives having perfect froedom in dealing direct with Europeans without Land Boards intervening. Ho (tho Promicr) was against the communistic principle, but it was one thing to desire a different system and another thing to put it. into practice. Was it not better for this country, recognising that past legislation on this matter had boen a failure; to lay down a departure on a defined basis; to provide for the Natives first, and raako the remainder of tho land available to Europeans; at the same timo providing the Maori owner with money to enablo him to work his land. '

A Loop-Hole. Referring to the Bill, the Premier said that, unintentionally, no doubt, the Native Aifinirs Committee by their amendments had opened the door to an infamous system. A Board could now, under any pretence, alienato'great areas to anyono; and an individual going, ahead of tho Commission could lease half a million acros, and tho Commission would have to allow this to be done. A Maori Orator. ' Mr. H. Kaihau (Westorn Maori), in an impassioned speech in his Nativo tongue, asked, had tho Maoris themselves called for the.'proposals in the Bill; had they asked that tho land should bo handed over to Boards? In the future, what proceods would tho Natives receive'.from tha Boards; and how could members of tho House vote on this question if they did not know its probable effects?- The Maori would bo trampled on. He referred to the small areas of land remaining, and said that ho and thoso with him would bo willing to give a cortain quantity of land to meet the cry for settlement. But he was against tho Bill. His district would bo very much affected. The Trouble Will Commence. He declared that if the Bill was passed tho troublo would commence What did ho mean by trouble ? Thero were others to whom recourse could bo had who may kno.w moro than those in tho Houso, aud who would do moro for. tho Maoris. Ho referred to tho promises conferred under the Treaty of. Waitangi, and said that under the Bill their mana—the right to. look after their own land affairs —would bo trampled on.

A Plea for Time. At this stogo tho Speaker rang the bell. Mr. Kaihau at onco pleaded for an extension of time. He had only been speaking halftime, the interpreter ocoupying tho other half. (Laughter.) He asked for nnother half-hour, and held up several sheets of notes to show that ho had lots to say. (Laughter.) Tho Speaker replied that tho matter lay with the House; and a vote resulted in an oxtension of timo boing granted. (Mombora applauded.) Let Them Pay the Price, Mr. Kaihau then proceeded with his protests. All the pcoplo who wanted land could got it if they paid tho price. Twenty thousand Nat ivos would bo present in tho House to protest against tho Bill if it woro passed. The desiro of tho Government to uplift tho Natives waR, ho was afrnid, absolute humbug. (Laughter.) _ Within two years ho would provide sufficient land in his district for all Kuropoans who wanted it. Ho moved that the Bill bo deferred for a year. (Loud applause.) Mr. Ruthorford seconded tho motion pro forma. Personnel of the Commission. Mr. Jennings said there should have been on tho Commission a Kuropean sottlor familiar with the conditions of settlement on tho lands concerned. Tho Mnori lands of the King Country wore worthless until the lv/ntn settlers began to make them productive, and these men ought to have been represented '011 tho Commission, the two moinbers of which

were biassed. He hoped the Bill would help to sottlo the most vexed question in tho Dominion. Mr. Hogg sympathised with tho desiro to postpone tho Bill. Ho also spoke of th'a need for closer settlement on Maori land? in his electorate. Tho manner in which these lands had been disposed of in tho Wairarapa and elsewhere wns outrageous. The Natives and tho small European settlors had been robbed of tboir rights by the Maori Land Boards repeatedly renewing the leases of largo areas, Tho quality of the Nativo Innd legislation passed by this House would hardly bear investigation. Mr. A. L, D. Frasor said the last speaker had t Ipad to p.-iss tho legislation of which ho now complained. Tho Maori Land Board, which the member for Masterton had especially complainod of, was exceedingly jealous in conserving tho interests of the Maori and tho European. Coming to tho Bill, Mr. Frasor stated that ho had resigned his membership of tho Nativo Affairs Committee before the Bill was considered by it. Ministers had promised that the Bill would be brought down early in tho session, and yet it was but yesterday, figuratively speaking, that it came down. Not 5 per cent, of tho Natives knew what was in tho Bill, and no jnora.-iist proposal had been made than that u uotiul bo postponed. Nativo land, legislati?:. in tie past had been a history of robbery from "iho Maoris. A Royal Commission was frequently .the refuge, of tho political shufller, but ho paid a high "tributo to the work done by Mr. Ngata on tho present Commission. I-lo thought, however, that the wrong men had hoeu chosen for tho position. Tho Chief Justice was biassed on Native land matters. Mr. Ngata was honest and cfernest, but was strongly biassed in favour of improving the Maoris, and it was not likely that a Commission so composed could devise a schonio that would bo satisfactory to all parties. The Government ha<J for tho past fiftoon years treated tho Natives most shamefully. Sinoe resuming the pre-emptivo rights ovor Native lands the Government had bought lands at much bolow their real value, and had thus reduced many Natives to poverty. Mr. Fraser quoted records to show that the Nativo Minister had opposed the resumption of the .pre-emptivo right, which was effected in 1894. The Bill practically re-established the pre-emptivo right. The Maoris wero very unfairly treated in the Bill, and if the Minister wont on' with it at present the responsibility would be his. Individualisation was a good thins, but there were thousands of acres in tho North Island that could not be individualised, and these should bo leased by auction. The theory of the Commission was Utopian. It was useless to say, "Put-tho Maoris on the'land and they will do well." They needed encouragement and financial! assistance.

Mr. Syrries. said the measure should ho postponed Air. Davoy advocated that no Maori lands should bo sold. Personal Explanation. The Premier expressed strong dissatisfaction with tho now Clause 7a, added by tho Committee, and tho amoudmonts to Ckuso 50, as those, taken together, would deprivo tho Government of power and give it to tho Maori Land Boards. Mr. A. L. D. Frasor said that when ho spoke of a Royal Commission as tho sheetanchor of the shufflor, he was speaking of general principles, and was quoting a remark made by tho present Minister for Labour in another connection. Ho was not applying the reinarlc to tho Native Minister. Tho Premior accepted tho explanation. The member for Napier had said that all tho previous legislation on the subject had boon a failure, nnd that should justify, in his oyos, tbe inquiry of the Royal Commission. Ho (tho Premier) had heard speeches from tho Government sido of tho House opposing tho Bill, and those speeches seemed to him objectionablo. Ho wished to say 'that tho Bill would be put through, but tho Government would not force tho paco, or try to push tho Bill through by sitting late. If they, had to stop during next week to pass tho Bill, it would bo dono. The Bill was not going to bo postponed until next session. Its provisions had been published in tho newspapers all over the Dominion, amino protest bad'eomo from the Maoris. Tired of the Session. ■ Mr. Massny protested against trying to pass tho Bill this session, and prolonging the session to do so. "The country, as well as the House," said the Leader of tho' Op-, position, "is tired of tho session, and a great sigh of relief will go up when ,it is over, and when the possibilities of mischief aro at an end." He approved of parts of the Bill, and would try-to improvo it in Committee. . After further discussion tho second reading was carried, and Ijhe House rose at 2.20 a.m.