HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 26, 25 October 1907, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THE ENDOWMENT BILL. | READ A SECOND TIME. SEVERE REMARKS BY THE PREMIER. Tho debate on the second reading of tile National Endowment Bill was carried on with moro or less languor until four o'clock yesterday morning.. The benches barely held a quorum of reclining forms as one speaker after another rose to express-his • opinions: When, however, at four o'clock—when tho dusk of early dawn peeped in through tho windows—tho Premier rose to reply, members trooped in and took their piaccfi. Sir Joseph

Ward spoko as one. who had much to say in a bridf spaco. Tho portion of his spcech devoted to a denunciation of- 1 the tactics 'of a Government member was .characterised by much vehemence. On itlio whole, he appeared to have made an impression among his followers, and 011 concluding was accorded loud'applause. " . , . . .. Sir Joseph said tho question in tho present Bill was not ono of tenures, though that aspect had' been introduced into tho debates. Tho matter of tenuros was settled m w Land Bill. They had set asulo already tho availablo areas of land under tho-various tenures, except'those coming under the endowment schome. The endowment proposals had been submitted to 111 regard to the demands 011 the Consolidated lvcveriuo—not, for substituting revenue to carry on education and theold ago pensions, as so'mo nionibers had suggested—but to assist in providing for the. great growth of the future. Regarding statements .that country, lands would depreciate in' value, he saulthat tlieso lands'in the five years—loo 2to had 'increased: in unimproved valuo by £17,608,893, while town lands had gone up in ,tho same periods £12,920,0/0. This was an increaso of,five million's in favour ot the country lands; The Premier pointed to ; the United States of America. _ There tho . total area - set aside for. educational, purposes m 1878 was hoarly eighty million acros. In England great areas had been set aside also, and tho Government, recognising what had been done. in . other countries, and believing that something required to be done to givo permanency in the -two objects named in the Bill; had submitted tho present proposals.

Effrontery and Audacity. The member . for Motueka had had • the supremo political, effrontery and, audacity to say that the legislation was that of the member for Lyttclton. The member [or Lyttelton had had nothing to do with it. If the speech of the/member tor Motueka had come from' the other'side of the House he (the Premior) could havo understood it, but when a' member of tho ; Government party camo along and) used the dagger—when the Administration was stabbed in by one of its own members—he resented it, and the member could do what he liked. They wanted fair discussion and-full consideration. (Hear, hoar.) They could take their hits and their knocks from the "Opposition, and the fullest and freest . criticism. from their friends, but they were not going to stand and take stabs in tho'back-when trying to do what was fair.

The Schedule* Replying.to the member' fpr,Oamaru, he-cle-clafed ,'it • was absolutely incorrect to say.the Oamaru Harbour. Board endowments wero included in the oudowment schedule. He had a letter from the Under-Secretary to that effect. As to the; schedule, ho explained, it could not havo beon reinstated m tho committeo. His method of substituting the Iparliamentary Paper was. tho only one feasible, and he declared. .positively that members could, tako' 'exception ; in. the .committeo debate !to .any' items', in itho schedule. ..• > Cause -of. Disproportion .

-As to tho difference in areas set; aside in each island the reason must bo apparent to any hon. momber who took into consideration tho prevention of the proper occupation-' of, Native lands during tho past forty or fifty years. What had boon the position during that periodP-' Large had been locked up. (primarily owing to tho Maori wars) and.'tho country had been unable to get completely over tho causes that had led to the'- position.vlt was true tbat_ in tlio South Island for years past they had had large areas'of Ihuds takpn up on tho lease-, holl system, with ,the resiilt , that Canterbury, had lands leased that were bringing - m a 'rovenue of nearly £25,000 per annum; and theso lands woro 'unoccupied. They could not alter that ;it was (hero. In tho North Island "what had they?' They had a large area of Native liinds' which required to be settled,' and. that'.must bo done "on a basis satisfactory ,to tho Maori , and European. But : in the ' meantime members .were complaining about , tho .difference between the leasehold areas) in the; South as against the north, ignoring .that there never had .been laud available for m the north to compare with that for settlement purposes in' the south. . Referring again to the endowments, he asked who was to say what they would bo worth in fifty, years. (Hear, hoar.) It did not-niattor if the land was good, bad, or-indifferent; members should, realise' it' would not 1 ' be placed beyond settlement. In' conclusion, the Premier said ho had spoken feelingly"aiid earnestly, because ho .felt that tho Government had-not beon treated fairly- by: those trom whom fair treatment was expected., He. ( would have expectod that those who had daggers would havo kept them sheathed'and used'them upon someone else than upon their friends.. (Hear, hear.)

ExJlanatibn Wanted.;.; ; ; v Mr. R. M'Kenzie, wlio came into the Chamber after the Premier had spoken, rose, and by- way of personal .explanation snid he- had heard that tho Premier had .used his .name in sime remarks. .He assured the Premier that if. this was. so, he -would tako an opportunity later, on of repaying. Ho wantixl to ]know .what ;wa_s said.. ~ ... The .Premier said., it was not for. him t° repeat -what he had - said. ~lt was a loss to the' member for. Moteuka no doubt that he had not. heard th.e.. remarks.; they would have made, a great impression on lnm. (Laughter.) i ■■•'-• ■ '•■■•'•■ A decision-resulted in the second reading of the Bill by.44•••t0.22." The decision was received with applause. . , ,

The Division. ■ - •• . . : For second- reading^)—Aitken. E. G. Allen, Arnold, Barber, Barday, Budclo, Carroll, Colvin, 'Dillon,- Sll, Fisher Flatman, Fowlds; Gray, ' Greenslade, Heke, Hogan, Hog", , Hornsby, I";' 1 " 1 , : Laurenson, Lawry.JVt'Gowan, MNab, Macpherson. pillar, Ngata, Parata, Poland, 10010, Remington, Ross, .Scddon, Suley, Stallworthy, Steward, .Tanner,- Thomson, Ward Witty, Wood. , ; A-'ainst (22) —J. Allen, Bonnet, Bollard, Duncan, Field, A. L..D. Fraser,,W l'raser, Graham, Hardy, Hemes Houston, Jennings, Major, Malcolm, Mander, Massey,_okey, Lan|, Lethbridge,/ R. MKenzie, Tho devision was greeted with . applause. 'Mr MlCen'zie's I remarksto which . the Prom'ier took exception wero as follows:— He expressed' surprise, at the Govcrnincnt introducing such. a • and said that if they were going to come to. the parting or the ways'let them. He personally was-pre-pared to go to his constituents. No member of the House was more friendly disposed towards the Government. : when it was formed than himself, but lie was not going to sacrifice his principles and the pledges. lie had made for over 14 years for any Government. Ho claimed to bo a sound member , of tho Liberal party,' but lie. was not going to take his land legislation from tho .member for Lyttolton. Tho Bill was a pieco of deception'to bo cractised on the country. Tho late Premier would never havo brought -m such a measuro.'.

NATIVE TOWNSHIPS. When the House met yestorday afternoon tho Native Affairs Committee reported that it had no recommendation to make on tho petition of a number' of Europeans at Ltiku proving that tho House would this session pass legislation to permit of"th6"purohasa of Native townships for the purposo of their conversion into town lands, with tho .option of the freehold. Mr. Remington (Rangitikoi) said tho Nativo owners of the township had assured him that tlioy had 'sufficient lands outside the' township to enable thorn to live well. They, wcro in favour of tho proposals and would also onter into any reasonable negotiations to enable their tenants to becomo the holders of the . fce-simplo and to erect substantial buildings. ' , Mr. Massoy said the relative positions ot Utiku and Taihapo wero sneaking examples of the virttio of freehold and leasehold tenures. The tenure of the latter wns trochoid and of tho former leasehold. Taihapo had shot ahead while "Utiku, w.uch had even I greater advantages in back settlement, had

remained practically at a standstill. Ho supported the request. Mr. Field (Otaki) said in Ins elcctorato was tho Native I'arata township at Vi aikanao, which was established under tho Native Townships Act of 1880. llie Act was imperfect' in some respects. It allowed speculators to take up tho land and necessary improvements were not specified. If tho,. freohold could not _ bo Riven, tenants should ho compolled'to improve their hold-

ings.- . . Air. Herries (Bay of, Plenty) said tho petition would not do injustice to the Natives and it was right for tho Government to sco that the Native townships were endowed with power to institute drainago and other municipal requirements. An amendment of tho Act was required. Some provision was desirable to allow' the Government to purchase tho Native interests. Mr. Heko declared tho matter should ho left until tho Nativo Laud Bill camo down. The Native Minister in describing the origin of tho Native townships legislation said that when settlements or. Maori lands promised to become towns, legislation was passed to, meet the demands of tho Europeans and give a legal tenure. Pipiriki was tho first :of. the townships, and all tho sections there had been' taken up. At Te Kniti there .was also a request for. a. township and the same progress was to bo noted there. ' Taumaranui .and ether townships had been established. Now the • timo had, come when tho municipal reforms desired by the inhabitants ought to ho permitted. The claim would he fair if due regard was paid to the interests of tho owners. Tho report they wero .discussing emanated from Europeans. He (Mr. Carroll) would like a similar movement to como from tho Natives, and if anything was to bo done this course would be necessary as the Natives were primarily concerned. Ho would be willing 'when the Natives sent in a petition to consider the question. Tho Act required to ho amended to give power to the citizens to carry out' their duties. . . Mr. Ngata suggested a Glasgow lease. Tho report was laid upon the table.

: FIRST HEA'DNG. Tho Supreme Court Practice and Procedure Acts Amendment Bill was received from the Legislative Council and read a first timo. MEIKLEi ACQUITTAL BILL. STONEWALLING TACTICS. MR. REMINGTON AND THE LADIES. At the evening sitting, the Meiklo Acquittal Bill was considered in committee. At Clause I, Mr. Honisby urged that the Bill should be.reconstructed so as to make it general in its application, in Accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission. He intimated that he might find it necessary to read to tho House the whole 330 pages of cvidonce taken by tho Commission.

Mr. Remington also thought the Bill should be of general application. In tho face of tho findings of the Commission and the evidence taken, lie. could not take tho responsibility of supporting tho present Bill. Ho belioved the agitation. on behalf of -Meiklo had been fostered for interested motives, and there was a syndicate :that was to. share in any bounty that might bo obtained from tho State. He moved that the galleries bo cleared, as he wished to read tho evidence given by Meikle beforo the Commission. . .Motion to Clear the Mr. Massoy said thero was languago in the evidence that should not bo rehearsed in tho I-louso, whether thero wero ladies in the gallery or not. It had been ruled on a former occasion that tho ladies' gallery was not a part'of the Houso, and could not be controlled in this way.... Mr.. Remington said he would leavo it to theso ladies who wore. ladies to leave the gallery. Tho-motion to clear the galleries was lost

by 15: to 38. i By this time many of the ladies had loft, and the rest moved towards tho door, and stood there awaiting developments. An Ominous Ruling. The Chairman, in, answer to a question, ruled that any and ovory momber was at liberty to road the whole- of the .evidence. Mr. Fisher protested, against tho. idea'-, ifreading tho evidence.:-; It was unnecessary, as members' had it ;beforo, thorn,' and it had. nothing to' do with tho Bill. ■ . " Mr.' A. 'R. Barclay said tho House was not a young ladies' seminary. If the member tor Rangitikei thought his duty required him to read the ovidenco, he should not bo deterred from doing so. The Judges in . their roport had' said that the evidence of - Meikle showed' that lie was utterly unworthy of- credence where his own interests were concerned, and no' weight whatever should be attached to his ovidonce. The evidence boing thus reforred to'.' in the report of the Commission, it was proper to read it when discussing tho'Bill.. All but a very few'of tho occupants of the ladies' gallery left during the above speech. Many of them came back a little later, and settled down again: ' , Mr. C. Lewis (Courtenay) said he hoped the evidence would not bo read. Such an action':would' be pandering to taste's that should not be encouraged, and if' it was read he hoped nobody would - listen. The hon. member might talk about leasehold and freehold . ■

Tho Hon. C. H. Mills spoke in favour of tho Bill. Air.''. Hornsby said tho House should not entertain the measure before it without much stronger evidence of Mcikle's innocence than was contained in the report and ovidence. The Commission absolutely refrained from declaring him to be innocent. He u;ould support a general measuro, but .ho would oppose-the present. Bill by every, means in his power, and he thought it would' take a long time to discuss it'in Committee. ■ Statement by the Premier. , Sir Joseph Ward said the Cabinet had carefully considered the suggestion to bring down a general Bill, and dccided that .it was not advisable to do: so. The present Bill was based upon tho report of the Royal Com,mission, and ho did not see why the evidence' should bo raked up. The name of Moikle would not bo actually scored out or cut out of the rccords, but the Bill declared that the name ' was virtually cxpuged. Ho had received a lotter in regard to ono of tho members whom ho' had announced that he would nominate for tho Committee on compensation. Ho intended to see that member,- and ho thought,the member would prefer not to bo 011 the Committee.

Mr. Remington indicated that ho was about to read some of tho evidence. He reminded tho Committee of his desiro to have the galleries cleared, and (turning towards the ladies' gallery) declared that the responsibility was not his,-if anyone remained to hear him read what ho felt it right to place beforo the Committee. Exeunt the Ladies. These words wero greeted with general laughter, while all the ladies hurried to tho exit, except two who stood near tho door and.two who remained seated in tho midst of tho gallory. After a little, consultation,' however, they all Withdrew. Mr. Remington was rung down without having begun to road, tho ovidenco., Pointed Questions. Mr. A. L.. D. Frasor, speaking with some heat, opposed , the liill; but said that if it went 110 further than to declare that the chargo against Meiklo was not proven, lie would iiavo voted for it. He asked the Premier: What amount was paid by the Crown for the defence of Moikle beforo the Commission and to whom? This thing was being run by a little group outside the House, who wcro no •friends of tho House or to tho country. Tlicy were treating 'members as marionettes. The House was being asked to declare that Meiklo was innocent. Mr. Ilornsby again spoke for tho allotted ten minutes.

A Defender of Meikle. Mr. Wilford supported tho Bill. 110 emphasised tho finding of tho Commission that tho ovidenco, bad it boon given at a retrial of Meiklo, would liavo made it proper to acquit tho defendant. A man must bo hold to bo innocent until ho was proved to bo guilty. Mr. Remington said it was natural that tho . ovidenco should bo . inconclusive whon some of the witnesses of 1887 wero dead.

others decrepit, and others suffering from loss of memory' on'essental facts. He was .not at rill sure that the perjurer was not Meikle. instead of Lambert. Meikle had been warned by Dr. Fiiullay and the Commission that ho was on the brink of being committed for wilful and corrupt perjury. Mr. F. Lawry recalled the fact that Meikle, after receiving £500 from the Crown, signed a receipt in full discharge of all claims. Ho asked what the late enquiry had cost the Crown. He opposed the Bill, although he believed Meikle had been wrongly convicted. r Mr' Hornsby praised the Premier for putting aside his personal feelings in taking the action ho had in this,matter. After supper tho discussion was continued by Messrs. Lawry, Hornsby, Barclay, and A. L. D. Frascr. Mr Wilford questioned whether it was competent for tho Government to relegate tho question of compensation to a committee instead of dealing with it in tho Bill.

No Finality. Mr. T. Mackenzie, who mentioned that ho had been nominated as a member of the committeo 011 compensation to Meikle, said that he believed there would be 110 finality about tho matter. Meikle would not lot it rest. ' Mr. Lawry said a gentleman had told him once in Auckland: that lie had given £0 to Meikle because 110 was attacking the Government. After this it appeared to him that the Premier.was acting upon tho highest principles of Christianity 111 doing good to his enemies. Mr. Ngata urged' that mefabers shoula deal with the Bill on its merits, instead ot washing dirty linen in public. • Mr.. Lawry, not for the first time, called upon the Minister for Lands to telliwhat he knew regarding ,a' certain grant to.Meikle for'legal expenses. It was duo to himself, for 110 had supported the lion, gentleman throughout his Land Bill, especially when lie was wrong—(Laughter)—that such an explanation should bo givon.

Progress Reported. At fivo minutes past twelve, The' Premier said it was ovidently useless to go any further that" night. He would bring the Bill forward again, and lie would bo willing to consider any reasonable amendments that might.be made with a view to facilitating its passage. " Ho moved to report progress.: This was agreed to.

Tho Premier gave notico to movo the setting up. of a committee consisting of Messrs. Arnolcf; ■ Hanan, Malcolm, Mander,' T. Mackenzie, Symes, Witty, Poole ( Tanner, and the mover, to consider the question of the amount of compensation to bo awarded to Meiklo, such committee to take into consideration

the report of tho Royal Commission, tho evidence taken by it, and such other evidenco as they think necessary, and .to have power to call for persons and papers. The House rose at 12.10 a.m.