OFF COURSE BETTING POLL NEXT FEBRUARY

Chronicle (Levin), 1 October 1948, Page 6

OFF COURSE BETTING POLL NEXT FEBRUARY

Press Association)

Parliament Discusses EfFect 0£ Gambling On Morals '

(Per

WELLINGTON, Sept. 30. In the Hou.se of Represexitatives urgeney was taken for the second reading debate on the Gaming Poll Bill. Mr. It. G. Gerard (Ashburton) resuming- the debate, saul that before the referendum was taken on the question of extending off-course bettiug, the Minister sliould indicate if the opinion of the CoHinussion: 011 doubles totalisators,- -would. J&e impleniented. He said the people antl comttry should fully understand tke ^position before the referendum was held. It was not, he was aure, the desile of the, House to see betting shops set up all over the country and he would not advocate making betting faeilities any easier than tliey \yere todav. The Minister should have brought dovvn a full seheme in regard to betting so that the people vould kuow where they were rather than vote in the blind and wait for the Minister Lo announcc a seheme. Mr. Langstone (Koskill) said thero was no other country where there were snch a nuiuber of races and such higli stak'es as in New Zealand. Ninety per cent of the totalisator revenue over an average of three years liad to l>e speut on stakes. Mr. Langstone went 011 to say that the stakes for the Auckland L'up had been raised to £10,000. Mr. Biin:. For the winner. Mr. Langstone: Howe was first past the pc/st and lie did not get it. Mr. Goosman (to Mr. Bpeaker): Has any honourable member the right to staud up in tliis House and utter a deliberate lie ? Asked. to Withdraw. Mr.. Carr (actiug Mr. Bpeaker) said that' on the other haud the honouraule iuember could not charge any other honourable member with uttering a deliberate lie. ' lie asked the membe?' for Piako to withdraw. Mr. Goosman replied that he would withdraw. If the member for Koskill also withdrew. Mr. Carr: l)o I understand the honourable member for Piakn refuses to withdraw i Mr. Goosman: With the very greates' 1 respeet I must refuse. Mr. Ifolyoake, rising to a point of order, said a serious situation had arisen and he thouglit that the meinbo" for Piako had spoken as he did onh after some provocation. Mr. Langstone: Not from me. Mr. Holyoake said that the meinbe" for Koskill was not charged with utter-, iiig a deli berale lie. The meinber for Piako had asked if any member in the lJou.se had the right to utter a delibcr ate lie. There was no ehallenge oicharge nxade. Mr. Mason said the eireumstanees oi Mr. Goosman 's int'M jection wero sueh that, despite its rhetorieal fonn, it eould refer only to Mr. Langstone and to the words he had just uttered. Mr. Bodkin said the incident went further back than the interjection. Mr Goosman, as owner of the horse whicli won the race wlien Howe was disquali. (ied, i'elt there had beeu a retleetion on liim. If Mr. Lang>tone would say he intended 110 suc-h reflectiou, Mr, Goosman would be well advised to withdraw his remark and the incident could closei AI r. Parry said Mr. Goosman, as owner of the horse to which the decision was given after an appeul, niav have felt some reflectiou was implied. Mr. Langstone: None whatcver. Mr. Parry said he was with the member for Piako al'ter the race. lie knew •what Mr. Goosman said 011 that oecasion and 110 person could have shown better sportsmauship than did the member for Piako 011 that occasion. Mr. Hollaud said Mr. Goosniau had naturally taken exception to an ap|»areut suggestion that the pri/.e went to the wroug mau because there was no better sportsman in New Zealand than the member for Piako. Mr. Langstone: Mear. liear. ; j Mr. Nash said he thouglit that, aftei ' reflectiou, the member for Piako would not seek to impose conditions on which he would comply with the request from the (,'hair to withdraw a remark.

Mr. Mclveen said the incident need not oe mugnifled. .Any ruember might say aiiyi,king iu a heated moment but the iuember for 'Piako must withdraw wliat he liad said. "" • ■Mr. Langstone said nothing was further from his miiid that a reflection ou Mr. Goosman whose sportsmauship he knew. Mr. Goosman said lie accepted this assurance. He regretted the. incident and withdrew his remark. Mr. Langstone, continuing, said there were 110 real diiticultie's in the way of. *>stablishing olf-course betting faeilities wliich, once they were popularised, would do niore than anything el.se to take people away from bookmakers and illegal betting. Position of Small Poll. Mr. T. C. Webb (Rodney) said he would vote against ofl'-course betting l'acilities. If a referendum were not taken at the general election next year, there would be a very small poll. If there were a poll of ouly 100,000 of whom 55,000 w-ere in favour of offcourse betting and 45,000 against, would that be taken as an indication of the will of the people? Mr. Parry: Of course it will. It is the opportunitv to vote. Mr. Webb went on to say that a potent argument in favour of olf-course betting was that it was opposed by bookmakers. There was an irresistible denuiud 1'or ofiMumrse betting and there was a lot to be said for taclcling the bookmaker on his own ground and endeavouring to defeat him by providing the public witli legal means of olfcourse lietting. The lcgalising of olfcourse betting would result in more betting, illegal and legal, he said For that reason it was an undesirable move. Either the bookmaker must be licensed — and with that he did not agree — or the law niust be enforeed. Enforcement of the law would decrease what was at the inonient a very grave social ovil which was growing worse. Mr. Webb said the only reason for the broadeasting of seratcliings at races was to let the people know if their bets were 011 or off. He regretted that a State Dejiartment should be involved in this way. Mr. M. Moohan (Petone) said thegreat ma.jority of punters did not want anything doue to the bookmakers unless they were given some other betting faeilities. If there was to be a svstem of olf-course betting, the private inter- I est must be eliminated. A systcni j would have to be conducted l)y the rac- j ing and trotting auihorities to ensuri j that al) money went tlirougli tlte totalisators aud the whole l)etting busi ness jnit on a better basis. Mr. Moo iian considered that it would be a goori idea if some of the proflts of racing clubs were devoted to other forms oi sport such as dog -raciug. , .fje qrgue.d that it was wrong for the Coxnmi.ssion to say in its rep'ort that a State Departinent knew th.-xt telc{)hones' were beiug i used for unlawtul purposes. That j should !>Cf detcrmiiud Utv xx Magistrate j after the police liad! made their inj qxiiries. It was at that point that the i P. and T. Departmeiit took out tele1 pliones'. There was a wide diversity of j opinion 011 the question' of off-coursc betting but bel'Ore the Goverumont 1 startgd to deal with the matter, the ; jieople should be aslced for an exprcsj sion of opinion. Mr. D. M. Kae (Parnell) said the Bill vvas a poor result of all the work of I the Koyal-GoxhinissioTi. He cousidorxuJ ' ihe broadexi.stiiig service was a propaI gaxida xxgeut for the bookmakers and I wliiie it was desixable that there should ; be eiitertainnient in the fonn of raeing | broadcasts, the Govenxment had a good , deal to be ashamed of whexi the broad[easting service constituted nothing but a propaganda agent iu that sphere of | the service 's activities. He said ParI liaiuent should legislate to reduee 'faeilities for gambling and the serviees of the Htate should not be xnade available for the purpose of gambling as they had been. Hveu il' gambling yiekled easy taxation, that revenue might be

obtained at too high a cost if it was gained at the expense of 'the morai strengtli of the people. Licensed Bookmakers^ Mr. A. E. Armstrong (Napier) hoped that if the Referendum. was carried, as he believed it would be; the K-acing Conferenee wp.uld- still leave betting to the men who unders.tood. tlxe1 business and would repommend to the Minister the licensihg of . some 200 bookxnakers. If this were done it would provide the State with revenue of £8,000,000 or or £10,000,000. Mr. Gerard: Oh! Is that the proposal? No wonder the Minister kept .quiet. Mr. T. P. Shand (-Marlborough) urged the Minister to say what course the Government would f'ollow if the referendum 011 off-course betting was carried and asked 'for the Minister's assurance that smaller clubs would not be swallowed up by -the larger clubs. Amalgamation 'Opposed. Mr. K. J. Holyoake (Pahiatua) opposed the recommendation of the Commission that the Pahiatua Clxib should be amalgamated with the Woodville Ciub. Minister Beplies. Hon. W. -E. Parry, replying to the debate, said he had promised all those who had made representatjons to him on behalf of the smaller clubs, that he would g'ive every.consideration to their interests. He had always held country meetixxgs and picnic meetings in high importance. " The Bill p'roposed to deal with a -problem,- which had given .the country considerable concern for the iast 28 years and the Government,. after most careful consideration of the Koyal Commission's report, had decided on the course of "procedure which was embodied iu the Bill. He 'believed it would be wrong to pass legislation of this kind without a referendum. , ' 4 The issije will go before the country and a vote taken in. the ordinary way some time in Pebruary," said the Minister. Some prettv hard words had been said about racing and gambling, but he was satisiied that not all the people who went to racecourses were gamblers. Nevertheless, there was a large section of tlie comffiuriity opposed to gambling. in any shape or 'forxn. During the" last year ' 60 per cent. of the people bought 10s tickets 011 racecourses, 30 per cent. bought £1 tickets and 10 peT cent.. £5 or over. Could the 60 per eent/be ealled gamblers? Mr. Parry went 0x1 to say tliat it was a frross exaggeration to sav that gambling cost the conntrv £40,000,000 and £60.000.000 last. year. AltogetheT £23.000.000 went round and round the totalisators for the vear and all tliat the people spent or did not tsike home was £4,000.000. lilr. "Doidgo: Where will the money go that is invested tlirougli the betting shops? " • ' Mr. Parrv replied that the ' Racing Conferenee wonld eontrol that revemxe and would make allbcations to -local clubs. The Minister asked at what point would it, be cousjdered that gambling became exe.essive or immoral? "Mr. Algie snggested that the' poitit '■rtiight' be wh etl "'A -p'& WOnns b'^tk^ftiOTYrffed to more than he could alford. "Mr. Parrv: -What niight be evcessive to the honourable. gentlemau might- not be excpssive for me, The Minister went- on . to saA- that bettino figures rose or fell afigording to the financial cpndition of tlie people. TTe believed. onr .people were no worse than those in other unTts of the world. Peoole enioyed. .their dav's reereation under cleau eonditions. The Bill was read. a sec-ou d time.