THE UNIVERSITY.

Press, Volume LXI, Issue 18426, 6 July 1925, Page 13

THE UNIVERSITY.

MINISTER AND EX-

CHANCELLOR.

, ° 4 '■!» V..i«W W"! pnljli-licl lire to all *>» c< ""' c '" Cll * «'■ ■»-;« y °"' s . q ir Robert- Stout s letiei . ' "5$ have t= acknowledge ll,e mo!* i Jcffer of the 25th mst. rclorring 'the Commission set up by the <-u----vernnient to entire into. and report upon University Education m >e* Zearegret very much that the dates advertised do not fib in -th required by your official duties. 0« im, i 0 en alteration m route, honeiei. . Tlarry Itcichcl is not expected to avii.e in Xctv Zealand until a week later than ,a»- expected. Consequently the sitting "in Ellington will 1 tend from June 25tb to about July -nil or 3rd, and the second sitting m \W-I-lington will probably take p ace ,r, the first week in August. T hope that, when the itinerary is finally revised, n Till be found that the dates fixeci w.H enable you to give evidence, if you so desire, in cither Wellington or Auckland. ~ "I. regret to note that you consul™ jt v.ould be of little use for you to give evidence before tho Commission. Assuming that the setting up of a Commission is advisable, I think you will agi ee that your addresses to the University. Senate and those made on public occasions ' could scarcely be used by the Commission or taken to represent your complete opinions on tho matters to > c considered by the Commission, unless # reports of the addresses you refer to •fare collected and presented by yourself to tho Commission.' "With regard to tho advisability oi setthif up a Commission, I have to mint "out that this action is not a, rt<£'o. Tv'hinr of the Department. _ Ihe governing bodies of three of the Uni,ver- . eitv Colleges have asked that a Commissioil be set up and quite recently fonvardeel strong resolutions to the Prime Minister and myself urging tins step.''Further, there is a number of Problems intimately affecting tho University awaiting solution on which tfjlnost ii-rttoncilable views are taken Ifr Inrgc bodies of well-iiiloi'ined people, evidencing cledr-cut differences of view rfphn.imjrirtant tjiiestiolis of University pplicy.or administration; end in not rfiinjr infctiinttfs does the Senate seem to fflfirc reaehed'anj'very satisfactory settJemeiiii Of these differences Again, i Cannot recall a meeting of the Senate (jtiring recofit years when - there liavo itoifeeri iv'igorous debates. "With refc-renco to your criticism of tho. appointment of Commissioners from abroad, I have to point out that ihany questions on which the Commission has to report are closely connected \('ith what might bo described as local University politics or relate to subjects concerning which tlwrep is a very iafgo body of opinion definitely arrayed on ■ v«itlifer side. It should bo recognised that uhder these conditions it would be extremely difficulty to select as Commissioners a body Of men who have tho standing aiid qualifications necessaryfor sucn a responsible and importantCommission, arid at tlio same time be sufficiently dissociated from either of

tho opposing views so strongly held in vimbus quarters concerning tho intricate and controversial matters referred io tho Commission. Before the Gofretllmerit appointed an outside tribunal I carefully cflhfeidei'ed the possibility of fifilfjloyitiij Ideal men for tlie fask,' but I caino to the conclusion that such a

irtg eomflififkllftg tho same respect as a, c<jfiipetefifc,tthd independent outside tribunal woiild give -us. Tlie selection of twO outside Commissioners should not, therefore, be considered as any veflectioil on tlie capacity and knowledge of the large number of "University people Sit KeW Zealand who tako a close interest in University affairs. On the tho selection of two entirely independent Commissioners of high strtfijling and qualifications will, I tliffek, ho Welcomed by all concerned a» providing at tlie samo timo a detached and independent committee of reviow arid the direct personal experience and knowledge Of authofities from two other countries to bear on our problems. "It inust le remembered that the Commission will have placed before, it all Shades of opinion.'by many eminent aflu capablo witnesses from various parts of New Zealand. It is here that tho Government expects to receive the valuable information which members of ihe Senate, of the College Councils, as well as professors, school men, graduate of the University, professional and business men and others are able to present on matter which concern the welfare of the whole community. "I am very much surprised that in yottt letter you have assumed that the sole duty of this Commission is ti> collect facts about University education in NW Zealand. It need scarcely bo cxpramed that this assumption is entifelywrong. The essential function of t-lig Commission is to report oil the fflets and to make recommendations reg&ffling policy. This Commission is Specially charged with the duty of reporting on the necessity for amendment and improvement of the present system of Univereitv education.

'.'i hive, with respect, to point, out thft{ the comments contained in pages 2-7. of your letter are based on the

.effflheous assumption that the function of the Commission is merely to ascertain facts. <4 I feel sure it will be found fli.itth® evidence placed bsfore the Commissi<Ml on the various topics contained in the Order of Reference will'reveal ntittierous and widely divergent, opinions, and will present many opposing solutions and recommendations, it will od 6ft thpsc opinions and recommendatiftfis that the Commissioners will be eallfed upon to .iudge, and their advice, coding as it will froin eminent and independent experts, should be of great .value to the Government and the University alike. "I do not think-, therefore, that Iho public will agree with your opinion that the setting up of this Commission is a futile proceeding. Indeed, tho criticisms offered by Voutself from timo to time upon the policy and procedure followed Under the present svstein would alone be niflicient to warrant the establishment of :i Commission.

: "Lfcstly, I suggest, that in anv ease •it is wise at this era of rapid develop* mCnt in University education to have a thorough arid independent inves'igation taking in view our "whole svsi em. This will provido a survey of the fundamentals, the natural tendencies, the trohd of development, the inherent factors of strength or weakness of our University system in a manner which could not possibly be provided by the controversial discussions on separate, disconnected, local and often ephemeral questions considered from time to time. "I felt that a special invitation to attend the Commission was due to you "owing to the fact that you have been so intimately connected with education for' over fifty years and, in particular, because you occupied with great distinction for so long a period, the position of Chancellor of the \New Zealand University.' 4 -

SIR ROBERT STOUT'S REPLY.

The following, dated .Tune 17th, is Sir Robert Stout's rejoinder:—

"I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter re University Commission of the loth instant.

"I thank you for your courtcsv in pressing me to take part in the proceedings' of (he Commission. I regret, however, to state that even if I had time tn devote to the matter, it seems to inc. farei'u)iy considering your suggestions. that no good could be served Inmy presence at the Commission of investigation.

•' riic views T have from time to time expressed on University matters maybe fonml in the minutes of the University Senaie, which contain several reporl.i m.'.'tlf- by me when Chancellor of the University. T shall, on niv return tu Wellington, send to the Education Department a few of my addresses, v.hii-h have been separately published.' "As in 1 lie :i<lvisallilitj- of setting up an external Commission, I may repeat tliat I fail to see ilie necessity for such a prof:-edmir. 'Die body deeplv- interested. Ihe Senate of the New Zealand University, has expressed no desire fof -;:;.-h ;i proceeding. and the Education Department must know what the history of the past- and present agitation started by certain professors of the col H'«'s is. What was ihe object of the agitation? 7i was to yet the solo control of University 'education placu'l in the hands of the professors. Thcv objected to external examiners, ana (hev got a Board of Studies created so as to control Ihe Senate and lessen its powers-. It may be that the Government desires to sec University education controlled by the teachers. If so, the control of tho primary and secondary schools should, I suppose, be left to the primary and secondary teachers. And can the claim of some of the Post and Telegraph and railway employees, etc.. to control their Depart mciits be considered inexpedient if the Uducai.ioH Department is to be managed by its employees? And what of Defence and the various industrial and social services of the Government? .Ls this new system of management to be applied to them?

"You allude to differences in the Senate. There h/rYc been many debates and differences of opinion in the Senate. So there arc in the Parliament. of Xew Zealand.- Does the factor such differences -lead -to the conclusion thnt .something is wrong in our l-ariianio'nt, and that a Commission of non-residents should be called into being to bring peace amongst us? I iu c no harm in differences of opinion in our midst. That shows that we are ft.-inkers, and are not dominated by a bureaucracv.

"As to the appointment of a Commission of experts from beyond Now Zealand, let me say that w<l had ait excellent Education Cominisslori in IB7S-S9, and 1' believe wc could get in iNew Zealand a competent Commission now. We have in Kcw Zealand now more settlers of academic distinction, than we had in .IS7f». We have in K«w Zealand, so our people have declared, men lit- to be Ministers of the Crown, fit to be jncnyers of our judicial tribunals, men and women fit for almost all our social and political service?. Whv, then, go abroad for gentlemen to deal with our education system? Safe we, in Now Zealand, no residents who cpuld report on the facts of our education' system and make recommendations as to our educational policy P "Who is to givo effect to the recommendations, of this Commission? Must their recommendations be swallowed wholo? Hitve. tho Government and the Parliament not to consider and resolve whether their are Worthy of being; carried out-? IF Ao,then we have New Zealanders who can; guide us in our educational polity."I may add that I am sorry 'to' hear that I. was in error ill assuhiiftgthat the function of tho, Comlrtissibn is ; maiiily to ascertain fa6ts. What has! it to ascertain? Tlio opinions of the : Commissioners on University matters; can surely be obtained without collect-; iug evidence froln New Zealand settlers. Are the New ZealanderS to guide the Commissioners? /'Further, I may ask, can it bo saidthat the Commissioners are independent experts when we know that on two at least of the most.important questions they have to, consider th.ey have already expressed their opinions? Hate they not declared in favour of the accrediting system? Have they not declared that tlie teachers shquld ex- | amino and nass their 1 own students? j

"Is it fair to New Zealand to liare selected as a, Commission two experts who have decided these two- questions? "I may ?.dd that to imagine that anttwo experts can settle our educational problems is to attribute to them the wisdom of a Solomon and a judicial faculty not hithetto seen in any Commission ever set up outside or insidd New Zealand.

"The whole proceeding seems to ignore what our New Zealand University has done. May I give aii example of its work and of the ability of otir students: Since the inauguration of the liliodes Seholarsliius aiid up to tlie beginning of the Great "War, wliieh ititerfered greatly with University education, for many of the Rhodes scholars went to the war, I find that about 62 per centum of our New Zealand Rhodes scholars obtained first class HoncmrS in the Oxford HomMirs List. Australian scholars got 23 per centum-, Canadian scholars 11 per centum, South African scholars 3' per centum, and United States scholars 7 per centum:.

These are figures for the years 1904. to 1911 inclusive. Js New Zealand so ,discontented with its "University and s6 incompetent to_ manilge its highest educational institutions that itreauires to e;jll to its aid two external examiners ignorant of our Dominion or of its history?"