MILITARY SERVICE.

Press, Volume LV, Issue 16435, 31 January 1919, Page 7

MILITARY SERVICE.

0 DEMAND FOE RELEASE OF OBJECTORS. LABOUR DEPUTATION TO SIR JAMES ALLEN. (SPECIAL TO "TffE rp.ES3.") WELLINGTON, January 30. \ demand for thv release of the conscientious objectors now serving sentences of imprisonment for olTcnces under the Military Service Art was made by a delegation from the Labour Conference rtW sitting in "Wellington, jfhtch waited on Sir J as. Alifii to-day. Mr P- Frascr, M.P., in introducing the deputation, said that it represented 60,000 workers. i>■ 3lr J. Roberts said that, to a largo ■) extent the objects of the Peace Confer- ' ence were to forgive and forget, and ho hoped the Government of Now Zealand would adopt the same policy. Men ■hould not any longer be kept in gaol out of mere vindietiveness. lhe gaol was no place for honourable men, am fhev should be let out. In England the movement to let out the conscientious objectors had almost universal support. He did not believe that 20 ncr cent, of the people of this country wanted to keep tiicsu men in gaol any longer. The people wanted an amnesty for these defaulters. . Mr W Parry said that the punishment of these men twice for the one offence was a disgrace to democracy. Jhe miners felt very strongly about, the release of these men, and he wanted to say, without making any threat to the ActW-Primc Minister, that if this small policy of vindictiveness was perristed by the Government, it woulc end in trouble. The miners reasoned from the point of view that these men had been put into gaol as the result of a £w enacted by Parliamentarians with So mandate from the people «* nil. Hβ eluded It would bo it reasonable thing for the Government to do, now that the war was over, to let these men out and to allow old sores to heal. Mr Eraser, M.P., conveyed a message to tie Acting-Prime Minister from some of the religiouß objectors in W*Aerui prison, iue Quakers, he .said had wished him to convey a message to the Minister and to the public generally ihat while they appreciated any steps that might be taken to make it easier for thoßo whose religions objections were beyond dispute to find their way Jufcoi prison, they felt that those who had objections to service from an. international point of view were just as conscientious as themselves, and until similar facilities were given to these men, the Quakers would not the Board that had been set up, becauso they considered that religion and conscience were riot synonymous terms. They held that it was quite possible for those who held freethinking views to have a conscience. The Views expressed by the deputation, he continued practically unjmmouslv by organised labour. At a time ™ke the present, when the country was faced with the greatest problem m rte history-that of repatnatitm-it was essential to have a united people, if the men returning were to be settled on the land and put into industries without unnecessary friction. This unity "ould he achieved if these men were "mtV Bloodworth said that it was • the unanimous wish of the Conference that the request for the release of these i men should bo made to the Minister. The " reason for preventing them, from "■ ' sSing-their vie ws dfd not exist any longer, now that the war was over and. ho urged that their punishment hadalready been severe enough. AP"** l0 ™ their views on this matter,, the character of these men was and ho thought the Government would be doing an action of which the whole country would approve, and certainly one of which organised Labour would approve if it released these men.

SIR JAMES ALLEN'S REPLY, "Sir James Allen sjaid that he had listened with patience to what the deputation had said. Hβ wished to disabuse their minds altogether of the idea that the Minister of Defence was vindictive, or that the Government was vindictive. That Was not fld. Hβ wee not personally a vindictive man—he feared that .•Jβ had often been too soft-hearted. Mr Parry had said that there were old eores to be healed. This was quite trtle. Some there were which couldi never be healed. There were eomo 16,000 or 17,000 of New Zealand.'s sons lying buried on foreign soil. His own son was lying in a grave in Galhpoli. The Government had had to call upon married men with two children, very much against hie wish, and the position had been reached w.hen the call would Save had to be made on the men with " three children. Did they think that ro do this was iny pleasure to hiin or to the Government P Hβ could have saved a good many of these married men from going to the front if other men had done what the Government believed, and what he believed, to be iheir duty, . and gone to defend their country. Some would not." They stayed here and saved their ekins, and he had to call upon the married men to do it. "Was not that a ' 6oreP Hβ wanted to heal it, and he would be glad to heal it, but nothing . - that could be done would replace these : tpeh who had gone and laid down their lives. Mr Parry: The men here did not kill tfeem. Sir James Allen said that he had not < ■* interrupted members of the deputation, tad .ho hoped they would not interrupt him. It Lad been said that th.*y were punishing men twice for the same offence. This was not/ true. A man Was puniehod for one offence. If, after . he was allowed out of gaol, he committed the offence again, he was punished again, just as u man who had commits ted a robbery, i-.nd served a sentence for it, and then committed another robbery, on his release from prison would be punished again. Mr Bead: There is no parity. Sir James Allen said that no man had been punished twice unless he had offended against the law twice. Mr Read: You might aa well say that a Parliament of 80 men could make a crime of hymn singing. , * Sir James , Allen: If you wish to speak, .- I will sit down. Mr Head: Wβ may as well have a fair statement, anyway Sir James Allen said that the men , had been committed to gaol as a doterj rent against men breaking tho law in J/\ , future. In a democratic country likt> New Zealand they must have law and order, and these men wore in gaol because they had broken the law. He had not wished to put them in gaol; he would much rt.i.rer that they had gone to the houc and saved the married men. Mr Roberts na<J . . stated that the gaol was not a place for honourable men. He juits agreed with Mr Roberts, but he iid not tbiuk that a man was honourable who, \- !.•::• his country's existence was at stake, did not stand bv his country, Mr Roberts: Lloyd George did not •ay that. Sir James Allen: I am not quoting Mr Lloyd George; lam giving my own _ opinion. Mr Fraser: We will take it for what it is worth. Sir James Allen said that he did not , - think it a small policy to call upon every man to defend his country when «t was in danger. He was sorry to hear from Mr Fraser that the Quakers, whose conscientious objections were

based on religion, refused to take advantage of the Board set up. He had never been very vindictive about conscientious objectors himself. He had tried to get a clause inserted in the original Bill to give them some latitude, but the House had been very determined that every man should do called upon to do his duty. As soon as the armistice was signed a movement was made to set up a Board to enquire whether some of those interned for religious objections could not 1)0 released. These conscientious objectors had all had the opportunity of doing ambulance work, bat some of them had refused to do even that. He was being asked to release these men now. A Board had been set up to rele-ns" those men who were bona fide religious objectors, but there were men in internment who were purely defiant objectors. It was not conscience that was guiding them. He was afraid that there were some of them who were downright shirkers.

Mr Roberts: Do you blame them? Sir James Allen said that he did not blame those whose temperament was such that they quaked at the prospect of battle, but he blamed those who allowed their temperaments to i-hlp them in such matters. Many men who qua!:cd at the thought of going over the parapet had gone as bravely «s any of the others. Those were the men to b« admired. He had asked one of the men whom he saw at the prison—ho had tried to' . say something pleasant to all of them— "Are you not sorry to be. here?" "No." "the man replied, "I am only sorry I was caught." That man was a defiant shirker.

Mr Semple: He was honest. Sir JatiK'S Allen: But his honesty displayed his character, and I don't sen why that man should be released. Mr Parry: He was more honest than the profiteer. Sir James Allen said that the British Government might declare a general amnesty when peace was declared, and tho New Zealand Government might be influenced by that, but ho had no promise to make in regard to the matter. Tho Government had a duty to perform to the men who had gone and to the men who would be loolfing for employment when they came back. The conscientious objsctors had escaped all the perils of those who hjicl gone to the front. Mr Fraser.- They hare been in prison, and that is unpleasant. Sir James Allen: But they have escaped the dangers and difficulties of thoso men who had been to the front. If I lot these men out, I shall be treating them better than the men at the front, whom I should be glad to get back at oncfc, but cannot gob. If I let these men out, they might take the jobs that the men at the front will want when they come hack. Mr Fraser: That is a paltry objec-

Sir James Allen: Are you glad the war was won? A member of the deputation: It depends on whether the war is really won. The war may be won from your point of Mr Fraser: All must be glad that the war has been won. Sir James Alien: All must be glad that the war .has been won. If the policy of Australia had been adopted throughout the rest of the Empire, and conscription had not been adopted in England and the other Dominions and the United States, should wo have won the war? . Members of the deputation: Yes, Bit James Allen: We woiild not hare won; wo should havo had the German heel on our necks to-day. Mr Parry: Wo should have released the troops from Ireland, anyhow. Sir "James Allen eaid that he was convinced that the Government had interpreted the feeling of the people of New Zealand by carrying the most democratic measure —that when men •were called upon to defend their country, all --rich and poor alike—should have to go. A member of the deputation: There wore a lot of rich who dodged it in New Zealand. Sir James Allen: ."They did not dodge it if I could help it. There were some who dodged, and we are trying, to get hold of them. Their names are on the defaulters' list, and they will take their gruel if they are caught, just as much as the others. ,. The Minister added that he. was prepared to deal with those who had honest conscientious objections, but not with those who had developed a conscience when the war began..' Mr Fraser': fjy<rald you treat a man who is ah international, and who objects to war, on that ground, the same as the man who bases hie objections on religion? Sir James Allen said that he was prepared to give a Very wide interpretation to the term "religious objector." Hβ would do what he could for those

who were honest objectors immediately.. Mr Semple: If Christ had come to the earth during the war and delivered that Sermon on the Mount, he would have been put in gaol. Sir James Allen: No, we would not have put Him in gaol. T wish Christ could have been on earth; I believe His presence might have prevented the war. The Germane did not act on His principle^. Mr Hiram Hunter mentioned the case of Noel Goldsbury, a Quaker, who was in prison, not for breaking the Act, but because he rofnsed to go up for medical examination, whioh was not required, by the Act, of Quakers. Sif James Allen: I don't agree with you, but at any rate his case will come up before the Board. Mr Ffaeer, in thanking the Minister for having received the deputation, said that a petition had been signed by the returned soldiers in Auckland asking for the release of the conscientious objectors. People who had lost sons at tbe. front had sons in prisons as conscientious objectors. Sir James Allen eaid he would try to doal with the honest conscientious objector, and to get him out of prison if he could.