HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Ashburton Guardian, Volume V, Issue 1579, 8 June 1887, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tuesday June 7.

The Houie met at 2,30 p.m. - THB SPBAKBR. Me Hamlln took the ohalr In the - abeenoe of the Speaker. COUNTIES ACT. The Counties Act Amendment Bill wm read a third time and paai9d* '- •' Mr Larnaoh moved the second reading of the Mining Act 1886. Amendment Bill. The motion was agreed to. P2BBONA.L KXCLINAIION. Sir Julius Yogel said he desired to make a personal explanation with referenoe to the remarks of the hon, mamber for Napier some few days ago. He had waited until the report of the speech appeared m "Hansard," and to pntjhlmielf In order," he should move the adjournment • . of the Honse. The member cor Naples had made certain statements at a pubtta meeting m Napier repeating his (Sir Julius Vogel'i) aolion m the Government Insurance Committee, of last session, and if Mr Ormond had not. repeated thoie atatemeuto reoently m the House, he (Sir Julius Yogel) intended going to Napier to meet the hon. gentleman and take him to task for his statement. As he had, however, repeated them lately, he now took the opportunity of replying to the charges made against him by the hon gentleman. Mr Ormond had said that when|helhad submitted names to htm (Sir Julius Yogel) last session, which he desired to pat on the Government InBuranoo Coaam'ttee, that ho (dir Jaltaa Voxel) had said heimust bo also on the Committee. Mr Ormond had .also laid that he had remarked to him : " But yon are going to be tried, and It is not right for yon to serve on the Committee." Mr Ormond had further said that he (Sir Jallus Yogel) demanded to be put on the Commit'ee, bat to this statement he gave the most emphatic contradiction whioh the f ormß of the House would allow him to do ; and it was wholly lnoorreot. He went on to state that Me Ormond himself came to him one day daring the progress of the business last session, and submitted to him aome names of memberajrhom he had selected to Inquire Into the manage* ment of the Government Association. He (Sir Julius Yogel) pointed oat that there were one or two members on the Committee who wera notoriously opposed to him. Mr Ormond then said that if Sir Julius Yogel went on the Committee they would also have to take Mr Fisher, whom the member for Napier evidently did not wish to serve on it. Sir Robert Stout, who was present at the interview, said that he oould nob go on the Committee beoause he wai a director of another Insurance Association. Mr Ormond then atrack off the names of the persons to whom he (Sir Julius Yogel) objeoted, and the Committee was formed. He would ask the Honse was it likely that he should allow the Member for Napier to say to him what he had been represented as having said about him being od his trial. If he had said to be would have behaved In a most somdaioot manner He would tell the Honse what happened afterwards. Mr Douglas McLean of Hawke's Bay, sent him down a copy of a oolnmn of matter which appeared In one of the newspapers said to belong to or controlled by the honorable member for Napier. That was written by a correi* pondent from Hastings, whioh town was part of the Heretaunga block. Thegrlevanoe was that the lnuurance Department had hot oansidered It desirable to lend a large loan to the town beause legal proceedings werejeurrent as to the title of that block; This correspondent further stated that the Government had lodged a caveat against bringing any portion of the fieretaunga blook under the Land Transfer Act. That, he might say, was the oase. The article suggested that the Insurance Association should be boycotted, and he did not know what else, In consequence of this awfnl outrage. When he saw this paper he went to Captain Russell, the member for Hawkes Bay, whom everyone knew they oould trust r as a gentleman, and said it was an extraordinary thing that Mr Ormond was saturated with Ideas of this klod, and asVed him whether, ilnoe Mr Ormond had called for the committee to make an Impartial investigation into the Govern* ment Insurance Association, he thenght he oon!d trust him to conduot It Impartially, or was it worth his while to bring the matter before the Houee Captain Russell said "I think you oan trust him,'* and he did not, therefore, bring it before the House. He would further say, In oonolußlon, that before Mr Ormond indulged In that oystem of accusation and mud throning whioh he was so fond of, he wonld do well to remember that la the pages of "Hansard" there were distinct oharges against him which he oould not meet, to the effect that he had abused his public position for his own private ends, and that he had better before he did any further mud throwing try to dear himself. Sir Robert Stout corroborated Sir Julius Voxel's statements^ so far as concerned Mr Ormond submitting the names to the Treasurer. Mr Ormond naid he believed he went by Invitation to submit the names, and though he did not rem amber the names, he thor^ht the gentlemen he named were impartial and had no personal fee'lng against Sir Julius Yogel; He certainly told the Treasurer they were going to try him. Sir Julius Yogel asked Mr Tole whether he would be on the Committed, and Mr Tole did not refuse, He (Me Ormottd) did not mention Mr Fishery though he believed that gentleman was on the original Committee. Having it great reapeot for Mr Fisher, he would be the last person to treat him with Indignity. He repeated that he had told Sir Julias. Yogel |t would be improper for him to be; on the Committee because they were going to try him. As to Sir Julius Vo-joFs statement that he did not get a reasonable opportunity to state bia ease, the hon. gentleman was reflecting on other members of the Committee as well aa himself fMr Ormond) . He challenged the members of the Committee to say whether ho did anything improper, or failed to give tfre Treasure? every oppoj>

tunity to make good hie case.' Sir Julias Yogel had to make a final statement, and m the end the Committee agreed to that course As to the newspapers which Sir Julius Yogel had said belonged to him or were under his control, that statement was absolutely incorreofc— as incorrect a8 any statement could be. He had no interest m any newspaper m this country, and had never exercised the smallest oontrol or attempted to own any newspaper m the colony. Sir Julius VogeVs statement with reference to the ohargea made against him (Mr Ormond) was also totally incorrect, but a much stronger term could be used. He defied Sir Julius Yogel to prove that he over abused his public position, and he wished the Treasurer had the same reocrJ. The hon. gentleman w»s not on 9 who oonjd stand op la tbe Home and say he was In that position. Considering what he dp My In his speech at Napier, tbe matter mentioned bySlr Julius Yogel was a very ■mall one. The oharge he made was that Sir Julias Vogel's Government was one that oould not show an untainted record, He (Mr Ormond) put on reoord there the judgment of the House with regard to Sir Julius Vogel's conduct. What was the verdict of the House with respect to the dlttrlot railways, when public money wri wrongly given and by the sanction and eonnlvance of that hon gentleman ? The House unanimously regretted the transaction referred to as calculated to seriously affect and impugn the Integrity of any gentleman connected therewith, and that it was calculated to give rise to eoandal. No one could point tj him (Mr Ormond) as having been guilty of suoh conduot as that. COUNTIES ACT AMENDMENT BILIi, The Counties Act Amendment JBIII was read a third time and passed. HIDING ACT' AMENDMENT BILL. The Mining Aat Amendment Bill was read a second time. PUBLIC BBVENTJES Bill. The Public Revenues Bill wag further eomidered In Committee. A lengthy discussion ensued, which was interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. The Housfi resumed at 7 30 p. m. Mr 6oobit McKenzio resumed the debate on the Pabltc Revenues BUI. He mid that the Minister of Lands bad com* mittad a grave ei?or m his aotion regard - Ing the village settlements. Such an Instance of unauthorised expenditure had not occurred m England for 25 years. The Premlnr said that they need not go to the English Parliament for such examples. Both Major Atkinson and Sir George Grey had acted similarly when m office. He referred at some length to the freehold tenure of land, which had been condemned all over the world and would be condemned still more. Mr Dargaville pointed out that Major Atkinson exceeded the votes of* the House by £261,396 for rails and rolling stock, while the present expense h«d been (undertaken for the more justifiable purpose of settling people on the lands. Sir Geo. Grey aaid the terms on which the Village tdttfetaoatft *rer<s tyla&ted were such as to id jure the character of settlers and destroy their prospect m life. One hon. member had told him that two maiden ladles were amongst tbe " families " put on the land. He criticised at length the policy and proceedings of the Government. He strongly advocated freehold tenure. Sir Robert Stout quoted from "Hansard" to show Sir Geo. Grey's inconsistency, and asked why he did not vote as he talked instead of delivering heroic speeches, and then recording his vote according to the dictates of the party to whioh he for the moment belonged, even though it was a party of one. Mr Fergus twitted the Premier with reviling a leader ha once adored. Be himself was now allied with thoee with whom he really had notbiDg m common, and by so doing had exposed his name to derision and soorn, He derided the schemes of the Minister of Lands ai those of a "visionary and theorist." While the Colonial Secretary was boasting of saving £5130 m the Sheep and R&bblt Department, Mr Ballanoe was spending fourteen times as much m another direotlon without the authority of Parliament. He warned Ministers that they had much better turn their attention to stamping out the rabbits which were oaualng the loss of £500.000 a year. Mr Ivess said the oolonists were under a debt of gratitude to the present Minister of Lands for hla efforts to oattla the country Mr D. Stewart ventured <o propkeiy that the perpetual Bystem would prove a disastrous failure. They were experimenting with their land laws and driving men with oapltal away to countries where tenure was more seoure. The effect of the land system would be to make the oolony dependent for the development of resources oh an impoverished I3t of people, 81r Julius Yogel drn'ed bbat oapltal was being driven from the country, and could not believe that any large number of members wanted the Government to sell the land m large blocks. He was not himself m favor of perpetual leases, but he held Government were wise to keep the land out of the market at present. He urged that the dlucußslon should be brought to a close. Mr. Pyke wai opposed to the experiment lately made with the land tenure, and expressed the opinion that all perpetual leaseholders and deferred payment settlers .would eventually become freeholders. He gave notice of a new clause restricting tire expenditure under the Bill. The Minister of lands m reply to Mr Pea^ook, said Government had acquired 432,542 acres alotig the northern trunk Hoe, Waimarlno block, at a cost ol £460,000. I Farther diioussion on the land question was kept up by Messrs Fulton, Ivess, Buchanan, Reese, Moss, and others: Mr Ormond oomplalned of the dilatory way In ffhioh the railway was being poshed through the Manawatu Gorge. Mr Richard soa said contracts had been let covering the whole amount ot money allocated to the work m the last loan. It wonld pay cost of construction of the open formation through the George, and probably one of the ttmuels Money allowed to the other line would cany it as far aa Ek&Uhuna, or a mile or two beyond. Mr Bruce having briefly expressed his disapproval of tho perpetual system, clania 4 and remaining ones were passed, and the third reading fixed for tomorrow. The House rose at 1.10 a.m.