ARCHBISHOP MANNING AT ROME.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume II, Issue 99, 20 March 1875, Page 7

ARCHBISHOP MANNING AT ROME.

The following is an interasting account of an interview which took place between the ' Pilot's ' correspondent and Ms Grace of Westminster. Rome, Dec 2, 1874. This morning about eleven o'clock I directed my steps towards ' the English College. At the Campo de Mori a market was being I held, and one of the most curious out-door gatherings it has ever J been my lot to see was assembled in that square. In the time of Julius Csesar the space, now covered by booths and stalls at which you might purchase any thing from a latchkey to a suit of clothes, •was employed as a lake on which naval battles were fought, simulating the warfare of the Tyriaiis and Egyptians. Here I purchased a copy of the celebrated Commentaries, of Caesar printed 313 years ago — the Commentaries which Csesar is reported to have saved from destruction in a ship-wreck by holding them up in his hand while he swam ashore — for the small price of two cents ! Such is the monetary value of fame ! Having reached the Farnese Palace where the genius of Michael Angelo has added its glory to the most magnificent specimen cf palatial architecture in Rome, I turned to right into the Via Monserrato in which the English College is situated. Attached to the College is tho church of St. Thomas, now in course of reconstruction. On entering the college I asked for the Very Rev. Dr. O'Callaghan, the Hector ; and after a short conversation asked hi*" 1 "otild I see the Arc ibishop. The hour for reviving visits was o\ , the Rector told me. "The Arch bishop' sresk enceinßome,' said ii.-> "has been likened unto a railway station, so numerous are the persons who call upon him ; and since his arri\ al here the college has resembled that from the numbers that hav-e been visiting his Grace." I asked the Rector was the number of English people in Rome so great as that would seem to convey. '• Oh, dear, no !" he replied, every class of people, Italians, and inglish, cardinals, prelates, bishops, clergy, nobility, and poor peiv- tis come to see him." " Wbat can the poor want with him ? " I asked. "They come for alms," said the " lector ; and this answer revealed another side of the Archbishop., character — his charity. " You have come," said the Rector, " to interview his Grace, as you call it ? " ' "Well, yes ; although I greatly dislike both the word and the process — that is, what it means in plain English. I know that the American Catholics hold Archbishop Manning in the highest esteem, and I should be glad to tell the readers of the paper for which I

■write anything that his Grace may be pleased to say concerning the matter now in the mouths of all men — that is to say, the pamphlet of Mr. Gladstone and the discussion it has awakened in England." The Rector then said : " I will speak to his Grace and tell him about your purpose, and the journal for which you write." Here Dr. Callaghan said some very kind things both of the ' Pilot ' and its correspondent, which it is not necessary to mention here, and went to ask his Grace would he see me. In a few minutes he returned and conducting me to the room in which the Archbishop was, presented me to his Grace and withdrew. After I had performed the customary homage, the Archbishop signed me to be seated and sat down. I had heard much of his gracious manner, but all that I had heard fell far short of the reality which I experienced in Ids presence. His low, gentle voice and slow, thoughtful utterance are indescribably impressive. Each sentence he utters, each word he says, has a value and a weight beyond that of other men. While this does not attempt to be a verbatim report of what he said, for I did not write one note during the whole time of the conversation, it will, I think, convey a complete idea of the subject discussed, and of the spirit in which it was treated. It was written down almost immediately after I left the college, when the memory of what was said was still fresh and clear. Archbishop — " Have you been long in Rome, Mr. Confeellan?" Correspondent — " Yes, your Grace j I came here on the evo of the Vatican Council, and with the exception of a few months in America, I have been here since then." Archbishop — " These years have been filled with many events and changes." Correspondent — " During my time here, your Grace, I have witnessed the siege of Rome and what immediately followed, as well as the many events which have taken place since then." Here there was a pause. It was necessary now to approach, the subject which was uppermost in my mind, and which has occupied the attention of Europe for the last month. Correspondent — " Your Grace has recently been drawn into a discussion in England, which lias been much talked of in the world. Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet has given some surprise." Archbishop — " Yes, it was an unexpected event." Correspondent — " Does your Grace think it is likely to do harm or good ? " Archbishop — " I think it will do more good than harm. When the assumptions upon which it is founded will be destroyed, as they are in process of being destroyed, it will open the eyes of Englishmen to the fact that there was no cause for alarm. Mr. Gladstone's assumption, that the Vatican Council has changed the position of Cathoficsvwith regard to allegiance, has no basis io rest upon. In my answer to his pamphlet I only felt called upon to insist upon the falsity of thi3 assumption ; for if this be shown to be false the whole fabric that he has raised falls to the ground, as that is the key-stone of his argument. "With regard to Lord Acton's Letter, the statements made therein are being picked to pieces. The ' Tablet/ has refuted his charge against Pope Pius V. His charge against Fenelon has also been thoroughly refuted j and bis charge against Pope Urban 11, with regard to the destroying of ex-communicated princes, will soon recaive a refutation. " The attempt to create a bad feeling amongst the English people towards Catholics has failed. It was a difficult thing to do. The whole spirit of the people of England for the last fifty years has been to remove religious discussion from the Parliament and religious persecution from the legislation. Now Mr. Gladstone has attempted to cast a firebrand into the country. The influence of Dr. Dollinger is clearly perceptible here." Correspondent — " Does your Grace think that the refutations published in the ' Tablet ' will reach the bulk of the English, people ? " Archbishop — " The ' Tablet ' is read for the most part by Catholics and some others, and may not probably affect the English, people at large." Correspondent — " Are the pamphlets already announced for publication in which Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet and Lord Acton's letter are refuted, such as that of Lord Montagu, the pamphlet announced in yesterday evening's telegraph as written by your Grace, and that of Dr. Newman, likely to reach, a greater number of tho English people." Archbishop — " I cannot answer that question. I have heard that Dr. Newman is about to publish a pamphlet on the subject but I do not know." Correspondent — " Will the pamphlet of your grace be published by Longmans, as has been tho case with former works written by your Grace ? " Archbishop — " Yes." Correspondent — " Will not that fact be likely to increase its spread and its influence among those who may not see the refutations already published in the ' Tablet,' and other Catholic journals ? " Archbishop — " I cannot say." Correspondent—" The late Pastoral Letter of Dr. Ullathornc, Bishop of Birmingham, suggests that the thought of Mr. Gladstone is not a new one ; as it appears from that Pastoral that Mr. Gladstone had, during the Vatican Council, and before the " were published, the idea of interfering with these Decrees. Archbishop — " Yes, ho scorns then to havo had sucli but no sign was givei of it until now." Cobrespondkxt — " The ordinary methods by which the J- iglish people testify their sympathy with any now movement, that is lo say, by public meetings, have nofc followed tho publication of Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet." Archbishop— " No, such meetings have not taken place, and the I English people frequently express their sympathy by such proceedings.

It is a pity," continued his Grace, " that a great statesman like Mr. Gladstone should, in his last days, attempt to divide tho people of England, and to lea^e behind him a warfare which should cause his name to be held in odium for many years to come. You know that the Revolution has made great strides over all the countries of continental Europe. It is now making every effoit to 'gain a footing in England, but on account of the good sense of the English people it is not likely to be successful there." Coehespondeut — " Mr. Gladstone has just been offered the freedom of the town of Haddington ; may not that be taken as a sympathetic recognition of the question sot forth in Ms pamphlet ?" Abchbishop — " Ido not think so. I think it has nothing to do with his pamphlet j Mr. Gladstone is a Scotchman." Coeeespoudent — " Indeed ! that is explanatory in some degree of Ins work." Abchbishop — " Yes, he was born in Liverpool of Scotch parents settled there ; and he has a residence in Scotland, at which he spends liis time occasionally. Fettercairn is the name of the place. It is very natural that the people of Haddington should desire to show him respect ; but Ido not think such respect has anything to do with his late production." "What," said his Grace, with a smile, "have the American pnpers said on the question ?" CoiutESPONDENT — " lam not yet aware, your Grace, as I have not seen anything on the subject up to tbe present time. It takes 6i\ch a long time for the news to reach America and come here that the papers I saw yesterday have nothing on the subject. I did not write anything on this quoßtion, as I knew they would have news from England sooner than from Rome. I only sent the denial of what was published in the 'London Daily News ' concerning a speech said to have been delivered by the Holy Father on Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet." ARCHBisnor — " That was false, was it not ? I saw the denial of it." CoiiKEsroxDENT — " Yes, your Grace; no such speech was delivered, and the Holy Father spoke to no English visitor^ on that day. Since then I have but qiioted the opinions of the Catholic Press in Italy. I waited until your Grace came to Rome in the hope of being enabled to tell the readers of the journal for which 1 write what you might be good enough to say to me on the subject." There was nothing further to be asked on the question on which I had sought information. All had been said. The residts and refutations of Mr. Gladstone's pamphlet and Lord Acton's letter had been spoken of. I therefore rose to depart, paid the customary homage to his Grace, thanked him for his great kindness and withdrew. In the corridor as I passed I noticed upon the wall three portraits — the end of a series which surrounded the corridor — those of Cardinals Acton, "Wiseman, and Cullen. The first, who died at the age of 44, was created Cardinal by Pope Gregory XVI., in 1839, and proclaimed in 1842, and was remarkable for "an inexhaustible fund of innocent cheerfulness," and distinguished for his knowledge especially tliat of law ; who was the only witness of the celebrated interview which took place between the Emperor of Eussia and the Sovereign Pontiff Gregory XVI., and who interpreted for the Pontiff and the Emperor on this solemn occasion. The second, Cardinal Wiseman, is still living in the hearts and minds of millions in England and America. His great learning in every branch of science and art, in literature, theology, language and music, has made his name dear to a vast number of people, and his memory glorious to posterity. Of Ca.rJ.inal C.dleu it bjsomw not m.3 to spailc. His Excellence is well appreciated both at home ami abroad j his able defence of Catholic interests lias been shown on many occasions, and his position as defender of the Catholic faith against the insidious assaults of false science has recently been manifested to the eyes of the people of Ireland and England. I thought as I left the English College how admirably might the illnstrious Prelate whom I had just visited, whose name and whose words are matters of the greatest importance whereever the English language is spoken, form the fourth in this grand group. The rumors that are afloat in Rome at present may be well or ill founded, as there is no doubt whatever that the creation of Cardinal Manning would be hailed with joy all tho world over.