30

That question was a subject of much controversy at the time. Without ever understanding it thoroughly, I rather sided with those who believe that sufficient actual profits had been made by the sale of land-orders to justify a division of profits in the form of dividend. My question is whether in fact these payments did not come out of capital, it having turned out that there were no profits at that time ? Some thought they did, others they did not. There certainly was, at that time, a visible profit, and most people believed that if the affairs of the Company han been then wound up, there would have been a balance of profit. Subsequent eTents altered the whole aspect of the matter. By the Chairman —You are understood to have stated that, in your opinion, grounds do exist upon which, if properly stated, the British Government would relieve the Colony fro/n the debt to the Compiny. Are yoi still of that opinion and if so, will you favour the Committee by stating them ? (Mr. Wakefield promised to give a written answer to this question). The Committee adjourned sine die. TUESDAY, September 12th, 1854. The Committee met to day at 10-30 a.m. Present—Messrs. Hart (Chairman), Sewell, O'Neill, Picarif, Ludlam, and Dr. Monro. Mr. E. G. Wakefield attended to give evidence. After reading part of the written answer which he had engaged to prepare on the last day of meeting, he handed in the manuscript containing the same, together with the question to which it was a reply. The question and answer are in the following terms : — You are understood to have stated that, in your opinion, grounds exist upon which, if properly stated, the British Governm;nt would relieve the Colony from the debt to the Company: Are you still of that opinion, and if so, will you favour the Committee by stating them ? I have never thought that the Imperial Government certainly would relieve the Colony from the burthen of the Company's Debt, but only that it might probably do so, if a claim for relief were presented on such grounds of justice and good faith as have' more weight with the British Government than, as I believe, with any other Government in the world. But the question put to me involves the whole subject of the policy of the Colony with regard to this Debt; and I cannot answer it properly without stating a good deal mere than my reasons for hoping that relief might be obtained by a particular mode of proceeding. There is a preliminary question which must be disposed of first. The object of the appointment of this Committee was to obtain some relief — a mere diminution of the Debt, by means of showing that the Company's claim to compensation for its losses has been over-estimated as to amount in money ; that less was justly due than had been awarded by Parliament; that the account between the Company and the Colony ought to be re-opened with a view to some new adjustment, to be founded on calculations as to the outlay of the Company and its assets. Now, let it be supposed that the justice of such a cla m will be placed upon indisputable grounds, and that the claims be presented accordingly. One effect will be, an admission by the Colony that it is justly liable to the Company for a considerable portion of this Debt, —for such an amount of compensation as may be justly due according to the principle of Lord Grey's bargain with the Company in 1847. Such an admission, which must inevitably accompany the utmost success of the labours of this Committee, would, not less inevitably, preclude the Colony from asking for that entire relief from the Debt which I firmly believe to be due by the Imperial Government, because that Government, through the Colonial office and its agents in New Zealand was the sole cause of the Company's losses. Is it wise to forego a claim on the Imperial Government for complete relief, by means of asking for partial relief from the Company ? This is a question of policy which comprises two distinct considerations. The first is, whether the utmost diminution of the debt for which grounds of justice and reason may be presented, is of sufficient importance, even if the Colony were sure of obtaining it, to be accepted as barring the