J. L. WEIR.]

27

I.—3a.

of the Aotea Land Board before the Government would issue the Order in Council validating the agreement. But we found that in regard to the series of £15,000 worth of debentures the owners refused that consent. We also found that a lot of those debentures had been issued to various people for expenses —solicitors, surveyors, and such people —who, instead of receiving money, had been given debentures ; also, the amount comprised a further sum of about £4,000-odd which had been paid for royalties to the Natives. That being so, the debenture-holders refused to carry 011 any longer, and we got over the difficulty by raising this sum of £26,000 on first issue. We paid them then, I think, £15,000, or between £15,000 and £25,000. I think that £2,500 had been prepaid in royalties, and the rest went in stamp duties and solicitors' costs, which had been incurred under the agreement whereby we derived our cutting-rights, and, naturally, those concerned would not go out until they were paid. We disbursed this sum, and I managed to keep it down to the £25,000, and thereupon saved £1,000 on the issue. Under our guarantee those debentures were for a term of seven years, and they became overdue in 1927, and they are overdue to-day. Quite a number of debenture-holders have claimed under our guarantee, and our company has been compelled up to date to pay a very great proportion of the debentures. As to the remainder that are still outstanding, the holders are now clamouring for payment, and in the near future we shall probably have to pay those claims too. These debentures were secured 011 the royalties of the Western A Block, known as Whangaipeke ; and also, I think, over 'the land the Tongariro Company waived their rights to, as far as they did, for five miles. The Chairman.'] That would be the first five miles ?—Yes, from Kakahi, pn the Main Trunk, to the Whangaipeke Bush (Western A), five miles from Kakahi; and about £2,500 of the £25,000 was for prepaid royalties. Was that for royalties over this one particular block, or over the whole area ? —I do not know. When we went to the Aotea Maori Land Board for its consent to the 1919 agreement the President of the Board wrote to the Tongariro people and said that one condition of the assent was that they should pay £2,500 in royalty, and at the request of the company I deducted that sum from the £25,000 ; but Ido not know the basis on which the royalty question in general is arranged. Roughly, the £25,000 that we have guaranteed went in this way : About £19,000 went to pay the original debentures, plus the accrued due interest. The balance was paid to the parties to clear our title ; and 1 therefore submit to the Committee that the Whangaipeke Block tenure has benefited to the extent of the amount we are liable for under that heading, and that, if it has been receiving the benefit, then whoever has the block has also benefited. Hon. Sir Apirana Ngata.\ You kept your agreement substantially right to the final word ?—The attitude I take up as far as the legal aspect of the matter is concerned is this—and I rely on the legal standpoint: that the title to the block and the moneys coming to us on account of railway-con-struction are secured under the terms of the agreement and legislation ; and I gather from the opinions we have had that that is also the view held by the Solicitor-General. But I think there is a question with regard to the debentures for the £26,000. Secured on your lands ?—Yes ; but Ido not agree with the Aotea Maori Land Board on that point. In so far as we have a legal title, it is, of course, desirable to retain it, and the suggestion I propose to make is made without prejudice to any legal position we may have, and with a view to helping all round. My third claim is one for £18,746 as at the last interest day, that is known as the " railway-construction money." The origin of that claim was brought about by the fact that in our 1919 agremeent the Tongariro Company undertook to build the first five miles of railway as rapidly as possible. A Member.] Over what land does that railway go ? —From Kakahi to Te Rena. The railway between Kakahi and Te Rena does not touch any of the Tongariro ground at all. Whose land does it go over ?—lt went over the papa kainga (Taurewa Block). Is that freehold or railway right ? —Two miles is the freehold ; afterwards it is held generally under railway right—some deed given by the Railways Department. For the next three miles there is a freehold strip ; and, incidentally, we hold that freehold strip on mortgage security for our railway construction. Mr. Langstone.] But none of the line has been constructed ?—Yes ; we have done a very large quantity of formation work. Rails have been laid for getting our timber out, and the material has been bought for the bridge over the Whakapapa. The origin of this third claim was due to the fact that we had to get access to the block, and we arranged with the Tongariro Company to build the railway as quickly as possible. But they had no money, and we undertook to find it for them for that first five miles of line. We proceeded to obtain it, the amount to be secured to the Box Company by a charge over the royalties of the block, the freehold strip on the line of railway, the railway rights for the first two miles, and any extension thereof. These securities were arranged between the two companies, and the Box Company built a portion of the line, at any rate, on that security. Hon. Sir Apirana Ngata.] Is that amount a charge on Western A Block ? —Yes, on the royalties of the Western A. Also, by virtue of the 1914 legislation, I think we can suggest that we have a claim on Bas well, because this clause in that Act recites: "In respect of all moneys which shall be or become payable to the Egmont Box Company, Limited, under the said agreement of the ninth day of September, nineteen hundred and fourteen, such company shall, in addition to the security agreed to be given by the Tongariro Timber Company, Limited, over the lands on which the said railway is to be constructed, be entitled to a legal charge on the lands specified in the Fifth Schedule to the said modifying agreement dated the twenty-fourth day of October, nineteen hundred and thirteen, but only to the extent-of the rights and interests expressed." The lands comprised in that schedule contain Western A and B, and to that extent we may have a claim on B, although we have never seriously looked for it. In any case, Mr. Bertram Philipps, if we were called upon to find