A. E. JULL.]

1.—15.

57

Engineers. It is possible that it is in the minds of the promoters of the Bill that the time may come when the whole administrative work of the Transport Department shall be divorced from the Public Works Department. That is as it may be ; Ido not know ; but Ido know that in Victoria the Country Roads Board is a separate entity from the Public Works Department, and, I think, the same in New South Wales. In this country we have been administering, as I say, along with the Public Works Department. lam going to assume, for the sake of argument, that one of the head officers of the Public Works Department is not a member of the Board, and will ask you to imagine the difficulty the Board may be in if we have to administer, as it were, disciplinary measures upon officers of another Department, which has to be done through another Minister and through the chief executive officer of that particular Department. I feel that it. will result in the Highways Board's work being made secondary to the Public Works activities, and I do not think that will make for efficiency in administering between the Department and the counties. The County Councils are brought into touch with the Public Works Engineers not only in respect to main highways, but with respect to all other roads in the country for which public-works grants or other assistance is sought. They have become accustomed to that particular form of administration and negotiation, and therefore they are not anxious for innovations in administrative methods unless it can be shown that they are desirable from an efficiency point of view or from a financial point of view. Ido not think there is any necessity for me to labour that point any further. Hon. Mr. Veitch : It is not intended to divorce the Public Works Department from the Highways Board in that way at all. Witness : But that is only one factor. The point is that unless the Public Works administration is to be made use of, and unless we are going to set up in this country another set of machinery—and I can understand that the Minister of Transport would not be desirous of increasing the cost of administration in that way —then the administrative work will have to be done by the Public Works officers, and I want to point out that there is a liability, unless a Public Works officer of high rank is on the Board, who has sufficient seniority to be able to enforce on the staff of his Department the necessary disciplinary measures, it may not work harmoniously. Hon. Mr. Veitch : May I clear that point up at once ? The position that will arise under this Bill when it goes through the House will be that the relationship between the Minister and the Board will be the same as it is now, and the relationship between the Board and the Public Works Department will be the same as it is now, so that any decisions, shall I say, to employ the Public Works Department to do the Board's work would be carried out on exactly the same principles as they are now. That is really the situation —the Board is employing the Public Works Department to do its work. It is not bound by law to employ it, but as a matter of common-sense it is advisable to do so, and all those principles will remain exactly as they are now so far as this Bill is concerned. Witness : I understand that, but I am just pointing out that unless there is the personal touch there will be trouble. Hon. Mr. Veitch : We would not think of eliminating the head of the Public Works Department. Witness : Now I would like to say a little more about the Board. The proposal for the Board looks to me an honest attempt to give effect to a proposal for two Boards, but it is not two Boards. Dealing now with clause 51, and passing over the amended subsection (4), which we are not objecting to, the next point is the question as to how the Board is to administer. Subclause (3) of clause 51 says, " At any meeting of the Board members appointed to represent persons resident in the North Island shall not be entitled to vote on any proposals relating to any local authority or to any road or street in the South Island, and similarly members appointed to represent persons resident in the South Island shall not be entitled to vote on any proposal relating to any local authority or to any road or street in the North Island." Now, the Board is composed of nine members, and there would be a large number of questions—as a matter of fact, there are —that do not relate to any local authority or to any road or street in either Island, and all members would be entitled to participate in those discussions and vote on them ; but when it comes to any geographical expenditure in the North Island or the South Island only those members representing the particular Island affected can vote. Other members can talk as long as they like, but they cannot vote. lam giving the Minister credit for a desire to give effect to what has been suggested, in regard to two Boards, but I would ask you gentlemen, as reasonable men associated with administrative affairs, how you think such a proposal as this is going to work. To begin with, I think the Board is too big. It is hard to say that you could have too many men representing the counties, because they do represent the intelligent portion of the community, but it is quite easy to have too much of a good thing. Mr. Mason.] How many are on the Board at present ?—Six. Mr. Sullivan.'] Can you tell us what the objections are to two Boards ? —lt is unwieldly and unbusinesslike, as the proposal will only affect certain portions of the Board's work —that is, where it actually concerns expenditure on works in the South Island or the North Island, as the case may be. The Chairman.] Is your evidence in this connection to be taken as on behalf of the Counties Association ?—Yes, only as representing the Counties Association. The Highways Board, as a Board, does not know anything about this Bill. The Highways Board, as a Board, has not met, and Ido not know that the Board, as a Board, would discuss the Bill. As I say, lam here only as a representative of the counties, and that I happen to be the county representative on the Board is merely a coincidence. Mr. Sullivan.] Is that the only objection —that the Board would be too big ? —No ; it is that it will not work for efficiency, but may make for discord. The point is that there is to be administration by certain men on the Board in relation to expenditure in the South Island, and by another set of men in relation to expenditure in the North Island. I think I will leave the matter at that. I have put our views before you, and when I say " our views " I am speaking of the unanimous views of the North and South Island representatives on the Counties Association.

B—l. 15.