HON. STR W. BUCHANAN.]

47

I.—lob.

Are they to-day ? —I do not know the position to-day. There was no such restriction ever attempted here as is described in these books with regard tei the dead animals and their disposal. It is stated here that in many cases 5 dollars' worth passeel into the' hands of the stockyards companies lor boiling down at I dollar. It is rather worse here ? Oh ! Was not the same fear expressed in the North Island as you arc expressing, about the Refrigerating Company and Sims Cooper coming into the North Island —the same, fear as is being expressed now, with the: result that legislation was passed ?—To some extent, yes. And Sims Cooper railed stock long distances, and paid big prices ? —Well, wo. never did business with them of any consequence. The farmers had a dread of the Refrigerating Company and Sims Cooper, and higher prices were paid ?-—Because, nobody was sure whether they were agents for, or acting in collusion with, the " Big Five." Hut (lie. same- fear was expressed then as is being expressed now ?- -Yes, to seimo extent. Have the farmers received a consielerably larger sum of money through competition in the North Island by these ceimpanies ?—I do not think they have. \ elo not think the- competition of these companies brought about any difference, in the price that woulel not have: been available had they never come into business. Then, the agitation and fear against these two companies have been quite unjustified ?- I do not admit that. It takes a long time to effect certain purposes, Mr. Macdonald stated that in 1908, when he came he;ro after fifteen ye;ars in Amerioa, he was astonished to find the low prices that were; ruling as compared to the, prices in America : would that have an important bearing em this question ?—No; because I feel satisfied that Mr. Maeidonald— whom I have not the pleasure: of knowing did not make- any allowance for the very important difference between an 800-lb. bullock in America and a bullock of the same weight in Now Zealand. In the one case yem have a huge local population, as the result of which you can turn your by-products over at a consielerably larger profit than here, because you have got a long expensive voyage. Yem have to present your 800-lb. bullock in a frozen as against a chilled condition. Anybody who has visited Smithfield knows what that means. Mr. Donaldson, who was in Canterbury recently buying for his company in Chile, which has 1,250,000 sheep, stated that American, French, anel other free-zing companies wore operating successfully with the Meat Trust. Does that prove that they are getting a, predominating power everywhere- ? —In South America, I believe, they certainly are. As I. am advised, there arc not the same facilities there for combination amongst the settlers to erect their own freezing-works and to act independently of the big packers as we have in New Zealand. are in a much more independent condition. We started our own freezing-works, whereas those people- never combined to the: same extent to put up freezing-works. That is my impression. That is how you are advised, but your opinions may be biase-d or otherwise. Now, here is the statement of a man coming to New Zealand to get the best stock in the world, from, where all these companies were operating —French and British successfully operating with them. His opinion is that it woulel bo to the interests of Armour and Co. to operate in New Zealand. Would you put any weight on his opinion ?—Well, Ido not know Mr. Donaldson. Ido not know how far he may have: been influenced by his own interests. Assuming that he was unbiased and merely wished to give; his view of the: relative positions, I would like Mr. Donaldson to have- had a little more experience in New Zealand before I attached very much importance to his opinion. I understand he is merely a, visitor. We all know that New Zealand is second to no country in the ejuality of its live-stock. You were referring tei tho question of hides and tho trust having 75 per cent, of the total output, and that the price was lower to the country butcher because of the trust's arbitrary methods- that the; outside packers were complaining about the low prices ? No; I merely repeated what I found here, in the evidence from which 1 have- been quoting—that, just as is the case here-, the ordinary butcher's hides are in a different classification to those of a, first-class freezing-works, where there arebetter facilities for curing them. They were getting more money because thoy were worth more ? —Yes. Where has the best market for our New Zealand hides been for some years ?-—I think America, has been a good market. So that, in spite of American control over hides, that has been our best market for some years ? — The law of supply and demand comes into operation. America has been drawing hides from many countries for a long time because they do not produce: enough for themselves. So that the American trust is not really a monopoly, because they cannot control the, prices in America ?—Not entirely, because of what I have: stated, but they do influence prices very largely. You quoted two or three witnesses stating that the trust or a member of it went down and sold at a low prie;e to crush the local man out of business, but you stated that the local man was still there doing business ?—Yes, I repeated what, was given in evidence before' the Commission. I have been oareful to confine myself to that, So that, in spite of all that is said there, the fact remains that one small man was able to live anel re-main in business against the trust, and as far as we. know he is still operating ?—Yes, it is quite clear that within certain limits a small man can survive, but he could not survive if he: exceeded the narrow limits within which he has the advantage over the big packers. A small local, butcher, for instance, has advantages that would enable- him to live, but he could not expand to anything like getting into competition with the big man. Well, you quoted a bigger concern, a co-operative company which had been for many years doing business, and which in spite eif competition still survived, and was able to draw his hogs a thousand miles in competition with the trust ? —He was forced to fight for a time- under the disadvantage of having to go a thousand miles, but it is quite clear that he could, not continue to do so, paying the additional freight and with loss of condition of the stock travelling that long distance. But is it not a fact that he had been operating for some years and was still in business ? - -The fact, as I understand it, was that the big packers became concerned at the progress of this man, and they took steps to keep him down by buying out all within reasonable: reach, and. compelling him. to go a thousand miles away for his hogs and cattle,