5

1.—7.

COLONEL HEARD.

25. Do you not think that could be applied in the case of those conscientious objectors'/ —An attachment of wages if awarded by the Magistrate for infringement of the law, and if you are going to take the conscientious objector into consideration, the mere fact that he is a conscientious objector to military service does not make him a breaker of the law, and therefore it would be unjust to attach his wages simply because he has a conscientious objection 26. I understood that this conscientious objection was being used as a cover and as an excuse for refusing?—lt might be, but it would be very difficult to prove that a man is using it as a means of evading military service, and it is for that reason we want to have alternative service to ensure that he dot's something for the State. 27. You do not think it would be right, then, to apply the attachment of wages to the conscientious objectors?— Yes, if he refuses to do alternative service. If he says, " I have a conscientious objection," you say, " Very well, we will grant it: you need not do military work, but you will do this alternative service, which will be civil work of some kind." If he says he will not do that either, then he goes before the Magistrate to bo dealt with, and his wages can then be attached if he has any. On the Wesi Coast there were ;'. certain number of young men who had an order against them for attachment of wages, and they simply went oil to camp in the bush, were fed by their friends, and they had no wages to attach. 28. Are you aware that there is provision in our industrial laws to attach wages hereafter to be earned? —No, 1 was not aware of that, but it seems to me that the attachment to be any good must be awarded at mice. It is all very well to say a young man will get wages in time and then you will attach them, but he may go out of the country or hide in another district and you lose sight of him. Any punishment that is to be given should be given at once if it is to be any good. I do not believe in holding things over a man's head on the chance of being able to punish him afterwards. 29. If a man refuses to do alternative service, what punishment do you suggest?— After all, what is the punishment for the infraction of any civil law—for instance, refusal of a parent to send his children to school? It is not a matter for us to deal with : it is a matter for the Magistrate. We are not concerned in punishments :we are ooncerned in reporting infringements of the Act. The rest lies with the Civil power. 30. Y"ou suggest that it should be enforced by imprisonment .'— You might have imprisonment of such ;i nature that it would not leave the taint of the gaol--imprisonment under a separate class, so to speak. JJnt I do not know whether it is possible. Whatever the punishment is it should be a deterrent ;ii should lie unpleasant. The detention of these boys at Ripa Island is no good. They are simply doing rest cure. That is no punishment. 31. Mr. /Iradney.] I think you stated that the onus of determining conscientious objection is thrown on the Magistrate? —No, it is thrown on the individual, but the decision is that of the Magistrate. 32. He has to decide as to whether a conscientious objector is genuine or not?— There is no conscientious objection allowed at present: there is a religious objection only. 33. You are recommending that the Magistrate should determine whether it is a religious objection or not? —Yes, he does now. 34. After he has once determined that, do you not think it is as well from a military point of view to leave them alone?—We do not want them. 35. Do you not think that, in the interests of the State, it would be better to leave them alone altogether and ignore them?— No. Those young men who have no religious objection and do their duty to the State faithfully will turn round and say, " Why are we bearing the burden and these people getting oft and doing nothing?" And, mind you, they have a very reasonable objection. 36. Granting that, those in question may be a very small percentage,'—lt is a matter of principle. Everybody should be treated alike. It is a democratic principle and a very right principle. If you do not want to serve the State in one way you should serve it in another. 37. What is the custom among the Regulars if a man becomes insubordinate: have you not a military system of deafing with him? —Oh, certainly. 38. Do you think we can carry out military service here if we do not have a strict military discipline and ignore sentiment altogether?— Discipline is the one thing that keeps the Army going, if it is to be of any use. A military organization can only exist in an efficient manner where £here is the highest discipline. 39. If your military power were extended by the law and you had such places at Ripa Island for insubordinates who were committed to your tender mercies, and they were excluded altogether from the world outside until you had done with them, would it not be possible for you to cure those men of their insubordination? —I think so. Of course, we are not brutal. We are human, like any one else. We manage our prisoners in the Regular Army with full powers of dealing with them. We are not brutal. 40. If these men who determine that they will do nothing, had, say, 100 lb. strapped on their backs and were told that they could carry that weight for an hour or two hours, and, if they would not do it, were allowed to lie down till they were prepared to do it—do you not think that would get over the difficulty? —We do not do that sort of thing. We have much better and less cruel methods than that. 41. Do you not think you should have power to deal with them without any complaint being made to outsiders or any sentiment being stirred up by the outside world? —Yes. 42. And any correspondence should pass through you?— Yes. All we ask is that you will either trust us with the powers or take the whole thing out of our hands altogether. Mind you, we are human. We do not torture people or ill-treat them, or do anything like that. For instance, one of the punishments in detention at Home, if I am not mistaken, for insubordination and so on, is to shut a man up in solitary confinement and put him on short rations. He very soon gets tired of it. It is not a cruel punishment, but it is a very unpleasant one.