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112. Where does he usually signal you back when you get inside the signal?— There are generally two, and one comes up to the train and gives the signal. 113. You cannot be signalled back unless there are two? —You cannot see from the end of the van on account of the curve and the cutting. 114. And if he went on the other side you could not see him? —No. 115. So that it is impossible for one man to shunt you into that siding? —Yes, unless he came half-way up the line and gave us the signal. 116. He would have to come along and specifically instruct you?— Yes. 117. He could not have done it this foggy morning?— No. 118. If a porter said he stood up on a bank and could see your engine, and that he tried to draw your attention to the signal to go back, would you say he xvas wrong?—He could not see the engine—he might see the smoke. 119. I xvant you to give me an estimate of how long you think would be a fair time for a driver who had not seen that country before to run on that road so that he would have a thorough knowledge of the road in daylight or on a clear night ? —I should think it would take him about three weeks. 120. Would that mean running regularly every day? —Yes, consistently. 121. And how long do you think it xvould take for a man to learn the road so that he would know and be able to stop short of that semaphore in a fog?— That is a very big question to answer. It would take him three weeks to learn the road properly, and if he did that he xvould know xvhat to do. 122. Do you think any man knows any road properly in a fog?—No, I do not—not right throughout. 123. You mean by that that he could not definitely state where he was?— Unless he knew any landmarks and could pick up xvhere he was. 124. It has been stated here this morning that the train-book at New Lynn shoxvs 6.44 a.m.? —Yes. 125. That is the time of your arrival, and 6.48 would be the time of arrival of No. 6? —Yes, the time of the smash. 126. From your experience of booking, are you prepared to accept those figures as being absolutely correct? —Yes, I have to. I have no time myself. 127. Would you be prepared to swear that the times stated are absolutely correct?—No, I would not. 128. Have you ever at any time found a difficulty with the mode of shunting train No. s?—Only when other trains were standing at the home stick, and then xve would stand at the other end. 129. Then you have at some time protested against that mode of shunting?— Yes. We have said it would be better to go the other way. Some guards work one way and some another. You are there to do as you are told. 130. Providing it is consistent with safety?— Yes. 131. But you have at some time objected to shunting at the north end of the yard and induced the man in charge to back down and pull in at the bottom points? —Yes, we have talked it over. 132. Is it an uphill, downhill, or level grade between Scroggy Hill and New Lynn? —From Waikumete Station you go uphill at first and then go down to about the crossing. 133. Mr. McDermott.] You say you have run No. 5 since the date of the accident?—-Yes. 134. You stated that you now enter the siding from the south end? —Yes, since about a week after the accident. 135. Do you consider that induces to safety as compared with the previous practice?—No, I do not. 136. Do you take water after the departure of No. 6?— Yes. 137. Does train No. 5 leave New Lynn on time? —Yes, as far as I know. Sometimes there is more shunting to do and sometimes none at all. We run out as soon as No. 6 arrives. 138. What would you reckon the general time of arrival? —About 6.50 a.m. 139. That means you can run to time in a minute and take water?— Yes. 140. And cut the train off?—A minute and a half is a fair time. You only want about half a tank of water. 141. Do you think an ordinary shunt could be done under five minutes? —It ought to be. It ought to be done in two minutes —that is, one kick. 142. You have to uncouple, go out on the main line, go back to the water-tank and take water, and come back and couple up the train? —Yes. 143. And you can do that in a minute and a half? —No, not the whole lot. You are always ready to go out before the other train arrives. 144. Do you think the previous practice was done in an endeavour to conform to the timetable? Do you think you would have had more chance of getting away and then doing the shunting afterxvards? —Yes. 145. There has been a good deal of shunting to do at New Lynn?—Yes. 146. No. 5 train has to run the passenger-train back from Henderson? —Yes. 147. It would be to the interests of the Department to run a train to time on account of it being necessary sometimes to shunt at Waikumete?--Yes, but you have plenty of time at Henderson. 148. But you have more shunting to do at Henderson ? —Yes. 149. The Chairman.] You say you have been driving there for some years?— Yes, four or five years. 150. Have you noticed any xvant of discipline amongst the staff at that station?—No, not at that station.