1.—17.

78

[W. H. HERRIES.

20. And you state here in Hansard that no one could have dealt with the freehold but for the Order in Council? —That is true, because the block was over the area permitted. 21. And you were under the impression then —and possibly maintain it now —that the proper duty of the Government was to have bought the property themselves and not allowed it to pass into other hands?—l think when they had the opportunity of purchasing it at the price mentioned —it was given in evidence —it would have been better if they had bought it. 22. You would not be aware that the Government had prior to that an understanding with me that they would buy it? —No. 23. You are aware, as stated in evidence, that the minerals in this land were never valued or paid for ?-—1 believe you stated so before the Committee in 1911. 24. That is right enough. I will assist you, sir. In your speech reported in Hansard last year you say, "But I would point out this: that the £35,000 at which Mr. Kensington estimated the maximum value did not take any account of the mineral resources; and I think the Government should have had an extra valuation not only of the land for settlement purposes, but of the land with regard to its mineral resources, and then I think Mr. Kensington would have made a different recommendation"? —Yes, Mr. Kensington stated in his evidence that he had not valued the minerals. 25. Therefore the fee-simple of the minerals has passed as well as the surface to the purchasers? —I believe so. Mr. Kensington said he did not count in his valuation the value of the minerals, but we had very conflicting evidence with regard to the value of the minerals. 26. But the value paid by the purchasers, as you are aware, was £25,000? —Yes, that is as far as the freehold interest is concerned. 27. Mr. Statham.] In Mr. Jones's petition he states that the Committee of the Upper House in 1908 recommended that " pending such inquiry steps be at once taken to prevent any further dealings with the land in question." I would ask. you whether you think the issue of this Order in Council would be carrying out the recommendations of the Committee?—As far as that is concerned, it is not for me to criticize what the previous Government did. It seems to me that when they issued the Order in Council Jones's interest in the land, in my opinion, had practically ceased. It had then been sold by the trustees of Wickham Flower to Herrman Lewis. The Order in Council only referred to actual lands owned by the Natives; it did not refer to the leases. 28. The Committee said, " pending such inquiry steps be at once taken to prevent any further dealings with the land in question"?— There is no doubt that the Order in Council which enabled Mr. Herrman Lewis to purchase the land could be said to be a dealing with the land. 29. Was that not directly contrary to the recommendation of the Committee?—lt may be held so. 30. At the time the Order in Council was issued there was a dispute between Mr. Jones and Herrman Lewis as to who was thought to be entitled to these leases. Assuming there was a dispute, would not the issue of the Order in Council have the effect of strengthening Herrman Lewis's position and weakening Mr. Jones's position?— There is no doubt, as far as Herrman Lewis was concerned, he was able to purchase the freehold of the land, because the leases were always open to attack not only from Mr. Jones but from the Natives themselves. 31. And if it strengthened Herrman Lewis's position would it not correspondingly weaken Mr. Jones's position?— That is a legal question I cannot answer. 32. We will put it this way : Two men are having a dispute as to who is entitled to some leasehold property. If you strengthen the position of one do you not weaken the position of the other? —That is quite possible. It did more to strengthen his position with regard to the Natives. When the Natives were willing to sell it caused the objection of the Natives to disappear. 33. There is a provision in the Native Land Act of 1909 that no person shall acquire moi;e than 3,000 acres unless it is deemed to be in the public interest that he should do so : do you consider that it was expedient, in the public interest, that an Order in Council should issue in this case; or could you see any reason why it was in the public interest that Herrman Lewis should acquire 15,000 acres of freehold?— Speaking personally, T do not think the Order in Council ought to have issued. 34. Do you consider that it was not in the public interest? —Personally, I do not think it was in the public interest. 35. Hon. Mr. Paul.] I would point out that the Upper House Committee recommended that there should not be any further dealings with the land until further inquiry was made. Would you consider the Stout-Palmer inquiry a full inquiry into this block?—l do not think it was. because it only inquired into the leases. It did not go into the question as between Mr. Jones and Mr. Wickham Flower. It only inquired into the position of Mr. Jones with the Natives. It was not a full inquiry—it only concerned one portion of it. 36. Did Mr. Jones have an opportunity of putting his side of the case before the Commission ?—I do not think he did, but Ido not know of my own knowledge. 37. //on. Mr. Luke.] When you said it was a matter of public policy—the issue of the Order in Council —did you eliminate entirely any possible claims Mr. Jones had in these leases? —1 think personally at the time he was practically legally eliminated. He might have an equitable claim, but his legal claim was eliminated directly Wickham Flower's trustees sold his leases to Herrman Lewis. 38. As a matter of policy you think the country at that time ought to have bought up £he leases from Herrman Lewis ? —I understand that offers were made both by Herrman Lewis and the Natives, and T think rnvself that the Government ought to have taken the matter into consideration and bought the lands. 39. You think, considering the network of titles, it would have been good policy to have purchased the lands? —Ihe Government were the only people who could have solved the difficulty.