68

[J. JONES.

1.—17.

72. Although your leases were registered under the Land Transfer Act the land was the property of the Natives ?—The fee-simple was. 73. I would like a little more information on this point : your statement is that the Government had no right to set up the Stout-Palmer Commission? —I still say so. 74. You admit that the Government have the right to set up a Commission? —I deny it in toto. 75. Did you not yourself ask that a Commission should be set up? —I asked that the Commission recommended by the Legislative Council Committee of 1908 be set up. But the StoutPalmer Commission was set up unknown by me, and I knew nothing of it until two months later. 76. Do you think the Government have a right to set up a Commission if they desire to do so ?—1 do not think so. 77. Do you say that the Government had a right to set up a Commission at your request, but at no one else's? —Yes; but there was no one else interested. 78. If they had the right to set up a Commission at your request they had the right to set up a Commission? —But this Commission was set up pursuant to a threat. 79. You say that they had no right to set up the Stout-Palmer Commission? —Yes, because the Stout-Palmer and Stout-Ngata Commissions were set up to inquire into purely Native lands, not for lands held under the Land Transfer Act. 80. Originally there was a mortgage on this property, when it was first bought, at £7,500? —£7,652, yes. 81. That increased in course of time to £17,500 : how did it become so increased? —Through the extravagance and extortions of Flower. I never got a penny of that money. 82. How much did you receive out of the £7,652? —I am not sure. The accounts are somewhere attached. Ido not think I got more than £2,000. When I wanted £1,000 for the Native Land Court and went to Mr. Quick, the solicitor for Plimmer, to get it, he said, " 1 want £100 as well for myself in recommending Plimmer to lend the money," and Plimmer wanted £500 bonus and interest for lending what he did. 83. You do not think you got more than £2,000 in hard cash out of it? —No. 84. Having increased to £17,500, how did the amount afterwards become reduced to £14,000? —Ihere is an important point I wish to mention, showing how that amount was run up. Flower was offered his money by Mr. Jellicoe, who said he would put up £12,000. The money was lying for him in London, and Mr. Jellicoe said, " You can take whatever is due to you out of that." Mr. Flower said, " No, I want £30,000 now." While that offer was made in London he sent a man out to survey the land, and that survey ran into £5,000. I warned Flower about that and said, " You shall not be paid for that." 85. After this mortgage had run up to £17,500 it was bought in for £14,000 by Lewis? —Yes. 86. How had this amount of £17,500 been diminished? —By no action of mine. 87. The property was bought in at the amount of the mortgage?— That is so. 88. How did the amount become reduced from £17,500 to £14,000? —That was arranged by Herrman Lewis. The sale out here was for £14,000; the £17,500 was in London. 89. You complain that the Order in Council was issued'without your knowledge? —Yes. 90. What would you have done to prevent its issue had you known that it was to be issued? —If I had known they were going to do such a thing I should have found a way to go to the Premier and ask him what he meant by it in the face of the recommendations made. I think on the 15th November Mr. Okey, in the House, asked him what he was going to do in connection with the property, and his answer was, " The matter is now before Cabinet, and directly a decision is arrived at I will inform the House of it." That is between the 11th and 17th November. On the 3rd December Parliament dissolved, and on the sth December the Cabinet all agreed to the issue of the Order in Council, and neither Mr. Okey nor any one else knew anything about it. 91. Could you have done anything else to protest against the issue of the Order in Council? — If I had gone to the Governor I am sure he would never have signed it. I take the liberty of saying that. 92. Hon. Mr. Anstey.] Can you, shortly, give us the terms of the compromise which you say was arranged between you and Sir Joseph Ward? —Yes. It was the same arrangement as was made with Sir James Carroll. 93. On two occasions? —Yes. Mr. Carroll was at Gisborne when I and Mr. Treadwell saw Sir Joseph Ward. Sir Joseph Ward said, " I am off to Invercargill, and I will telegraph to Carroll." Mr. Carroll saw us in Wellington, and afterwards caught Sir Joseph Ward in the South. The terms were these : The Government were to buy the freehold from the Natives, I was to cancel any claim I had on the leases, and the Crown was to give new leases —extended leases —including the minerals and a portion of the surface land in fee for my family to live upon. 94. How much? —It was not exactly arranged. There were ten children, and I said, "The least you can do is to give me an amount for each child." Sir Joseph Ward said, " That is fair, Jones." I said, "You will have 46,000 acres on which to put settlers," and he said, "I think that is a very good deal, and I will give you extended leases at a peppercorn rental. I cannot give you the minerals —you will have them in your leases—because there is a feeling on the part of the public that the Government should not part with the fee-simple of the minerals." Mr. Treadwell was there and said, "That is a bargain; that is all right, Jones." When SirJames Carroll came down he saw Sir Joseph Ward, and he agreed to the terms too. 95. You say the agreement with the Government was that they were to buy the land from the Natives, that you were to cancel your leases, that the Government were to give you extended leases over the minerals only, and also that they were to give you some portion of the freehold