1.—17.

60

[j. JONES.

63. Is that not the first sentence that you can take any exception to?—No, I take exception to the lot of them. Who wants sympathy? I want the truth, not sympathy; and it was the duty of the Chief Justice to have brought out the facts. "It does not seem to us that any sympathy is required for those who dealt with them in their leasehold transactions." Is there anything more damnatory to a man coming to this Committee for justice than a statement like that? That is the Chief Justice, holding an inquiry behind my back! And do not forget that he is an ex-partner of Dr. Findlay, who was interested in the transactions that were going on. The first day I sat here I asked the members of this Committee to take the Stout-Palmer Commission report home with them and read it. 64. Show me a more damning statement than that in the whole report ? —That is what I contend. 65. Show me another? —It is a malicious statement. 66. Will you admit that that is the most damning statement in the report?—lt is a damning statement, yes, and one that no honourable man would have made. 67. Mr. Anderson] When you were in negotiation with the Natives away back in the beginning of things were you possessed of any capital?— Yes. I had a good deal of property in the Gulf of Carpentaria, which I sold and brought over the proceeds. I had between £300 n,nc\ .£4OO in my pocket at the time, and then I sold this property. 68. How much did you have altogether? —I think my children brought over about £1,300 or £1,400, and I sold my interest in the property in the Gulf of Carpentaria for about £600. What capital I had I ran through and then borrowed money. The bank will tell you. My wife's relation came over and brought me the money. The first day I came here I put between £250 and £300 in the bank. When I got into this thing I sold my other properties and got more money. 69. You had about £900? —We will say something like that. 70. And your children brought £700 ? —Something like £700. 71. There would be about £1,500 or £1,600 altogether?— Somewhere about that. One of the sections I sold on behalf of the children is now one of the most valuable in the Town of Palmerston. It is worth ten times the amount I sold at. 72. You had about £1,500 when you entered into these negotiations at first? —No; after 1 went into negotiations I sold this property. 73. The total amount you had was £1,500? —Yes, something like that, and a sum of £400 I obtained for land I sold in Taranaki. 74. After you entered into negotiations you borrowed money? —Yes. 75. And carried on all through on those lines? —Yes, that is why I got into debt. 76. Had you any other property which returned you anything?—No, all my time was given to this. 1 have never earned a penny from any other source. My children have had to earn their living at bushfelling and all sorts of things, and have all worked in misery at Mokau. 77. Did they accompany you to England?—No, I went alone. I did not know when I left New Zealand I was going to England, but after I got to Australia the banks went smash, and my wife's cousin in Adelaide advised me to go Home to get capital; he lent me the passagemoney. 78. Can you tell us what amount of money you have raised from time to time on the security of these Maori leases?—lt was knocked down to Wickham Flower for £7,652 at auction in New Plymouth in 1903 by a man named John Plimmer. I put a document in from Mr. Travel's showing that he could get £4,000 of that back. The money has not gone into my pocket. 79. You have no idea how much was raised on the property?—l raised that £7,652, and then there is a lot of costs incurred in the litigation in England that I have not paid. 80. You have had no other means of support?—No, only by my labour. I had no outside resources. I took contracts when I was in England. 81. Were you long contracting?—l had spells, but I was often wanted up in London. It was a damnable life to lead. I was in Carmarthenshire and other places. 82. Have you paid your legal expenses?—No, unfortunately. 83. What means had you to induce those gentlemen at Home to take up your case?— Sir Richard Webster, the present Lord Alverstone, was Attorney-General when the trouble began, and I think lie spoke to one or two legal gentlemen of high standing about my case and got them to assist me. Mr. Flower in that litigation was ordered to pay the costs. That is the way the gentleman who assisted me got paid. 84. What I want to find out is how you financed yourself?— Well, I have told you the truth. Any money I spent was chucked away, as it were —there was no return for it. I will tell you one instance —any one acquainted with Native dealings can understand this : About six hundred Natives attended at the case before the Native Land Court at Waitara, and they naturally expected me to pay all the costs. ' I paid the whole of the costs. 85. Where did you get that money from?—l got a sum from Port Darwin and some from Adelaide. 86. Did you pay your New Zealand lawyer who appeared for you —Mr. Treadwell?—When I came back from England, as he had done a good deal of work for me, I asked him, " Have you been paid your costs? " He said he had not. I said, " Send your account Home to Lewin "; and Mr. Lewin sent the money back. The question of Mr. Treadwell's payment arose here again, ■and I said, "You have been very good to me; here is an 1.0. U. for a thousand pounds or a thousand guineas." I thought I could trust him. He has got that. Later an arrangement was being come to with Herrman Lewis, I think, and he said, " I am going to settle this matter for you; what will you give me if I settle it? " I said, "Do not keep me running up and down from Mokau. Take another thousand pounds if you do settle it out of the proceeds that I derive from the estate."