E. SIMPSON.]

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graded higher on her list than the man on his list, and yet the man got the position, while the woman whose headmaster speaks of her in these eulogistic terms was debarred from applying for the position because of the terms of the advertisement. 87. But on an ideal list there would be no such thing as an application; they would take the list as it" stood and award promotion from that list: do you not think that would be a fair ■system?— Yes- it would be fair if the sexes were represented equally on the Inspectorate, or the body who assessed the marks. In the meantime we want something practical. 88. Mr. Hogben.] Will you look at the salary of Grade 9a. The first assistant has a salary of Grade 6—namely, £240 to £270; and the second assistant has a salary of Grade 4—namely, £180 to £210; and the third assistant has a salary of Grade 3—namely, £150 to £180 : is the effect of your proposal to substitute a salary of £180 to £210 instead of the salary of £150 to £180?— That is it. 89. Now, I will ask you in regard to a little practical difficulty, but a difficulty all the same. Supposing you had a Board that would sufficiently recognize the merits of deserving women to appoint a woman first assistant : would you in a case like that raise the salary of the two men whom we will assume to be in the second and third positions before I —l do not know really. Why should we not take the salary as it is and let the men come next in order? Suppose a woman is appointed first assistant, why should not a man be appointed second assistant, and take second place, and not change the salary at all? 90. Then, if a woman got a third position, you would give her a salary of Grade 4—namely, £180 to £210; but you would have to make a proviso that a man only got a salary of £150 to £180 : is not that what it would come to? —There are actual difficulties in the way. 91. Have you thought, of that difficulty?—No, I have not thought of it. There are dual positions in the school. There is a, dual position lower dowm. 92. Would you get over the difficulty by making the second and third salaries the same in all cases? —Yes; then there would be fifty-five positions involved if we did that, because in some of these cases a man would have to come up and in some the woman would have to come up. There are some men now holding second-assistantships in these schools. For instance, in Canterbury there are a number of men holding third-assistantships, and if we bring these up there are, according to my counting, fifty-five positions involved. 93. In a Dominion scale you would bring up that third position everywhere, would you not? —It would have to be. 94. Would you alter it by changing the schedule? —1 think I would leave that to the experts. I have really no practical suggestion to offer. We only simply ask for the measure to be done. We have not thought as to how it should be done. 95. Mr. Davidson.] Have you any idea as to the number of women teachers retiring before the age of forty or forty-two, wo will say?—No, I have not the statistics. 96. Then you do not know that 81 per cent, of the women retire from the teaching service— mainly, of course, to be married —before reaching the age of forty-two?—l did not know the percentage. I knew there was a very large number. 97. That means only nineteen of every hundred women trained by the State remain any considerable length of time in the service?— They go out into the service in another way. 98. The Chairman.] On economic grounds, is it not a fair position to take up that a woman who goes out of the service as a well-trained teacher, becomes a mother, and fulfils her duties in the household has done the State quite as much service as a man who goes out into the world from the teaching profession into other walks of life?— That was my contention. 99. You complained just now that the women do not get that amount of representation on Boards or Committees that their potential interests entitle them to, in your judgment. Supposing it was a fact, as has been suggested, .that additional responsibility should be put upon Education Boards to control the education not only of primary schools, but of secondary and technical schools, would you favour any proposition by which women under an altered franchise could become eligible for seats thereon, or would you adopt what is known in other countries as the co-option principle, by which women, without having to go through the fatigue, &c, of an election, can, by- reason of their attainments and knowledge of the theory and practice of education, find seats on these Boards? —I would certainly favour that system. 100. Your contention is that if a""woman be capable of efficient teaching in any grade of a public school she should be entitled to the salary attached to that position, irrespective of sex? —Yes. Margaret Slingsbt Newman examined on oath. (No. 6.) 1. The Chairman.] What are your qualifications?—l am a teacher in the Normal School. I have a D certificate. 2. How long have you been employed teaching there? —Six years. 3. I understand you appear before the Commission as a representative of the women teachers in this provincial district? —Yes. I have three matters to speak about. I think I shall speak about kindergarten first. Ido not think I need advocate the kindergarten. I think it is recognized even in New Zealand. It is supported by the Government, and acknowledged by them in one sense. What lam here to suggest is that the kindergarten be incorporated with the public system of education. The kindergarten has always been rather a separate thing. That probably is because of the manner of its inauguration, but in most countries it has been found advisable to place it in its logical position as part of the educational system of the country. I will give my reasons for this. First, because the kindergarten has had a greater influence in reshaping educational ideals than almost anj'thing else. Its theory is accepted and practised in every department of education, but it cannot be effective unless the teachers of the kinder-

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