8.--12.

44

[6. HOftBKN;

certain necessary tests. If we did not constantly resist the tendency to increase outside examinations—l am speaking as a member of the teaching profession—we should kill education. One of the greatest enemies of education to-day in New Zealand and most other countries is the craze for examinations —outside examinations. 57. Would you say that the pupils in the New Zealand schools are overexamined ?—I think -they are, but they are examined less than they were. It is the public that demand examinationsit is not the fault of the teachers. 58. Have you considered the question of the introduction of leaving certificates acceptable to the University authorities as a means of entrance to the University?—l believe in it very strongly. I believe that leaving certificates are worth more than the Matriculation Examinations as a sign of fitness for University education. We have made provision for leaving certificates and we give them. 59. The Do the University authorities recognize them as being a sufficient substitute for matriculation?— No. The question whether the matter should be referred to the headmasters of the secondary schools was defeated in the University Senate three years ago by one vote. 60. Mr Kirk.] You think the certificate should be accepted by the University?— Yes; what we call the higher leaving certificate should be accepted. 61. Is there, to your mind, sufficient teaching of history and civics in the schools at present? —I do not think there is. I think it would be sufficient if they did all that is indicated in the syllabus. 62. Do you think history and civics should be taught more in the schools than they are?—lt is difficult to make a generalization, because the schools differ in practice, and you can hardly average it. Some schools do the absolute minimum, and others hardly seem to touch the subiect at all. J 63. From the information you have gained, would you recommend that further efforts should be made to teach the subject?—l think the matter should be emphasized more. That is one of the casesin which I do not think you can do much more through the syllabus unless you require history definitely as one of the subjects for the certificate of proficiency. Now it is merely classed with several other subjects. Let me refer you to clause 19, which defines the certificate of proficiency. After stating how many marks per cent, shall be obtained in English and arithmetic, geography and drawing, there is a general subclause to the effect that the pupil must satisfy the Inspector that he has received sufficient instruction in the ether subjects as required by the regulations. Amongst those subjects is history. I think we might name nistory in the list of subjects, as we do geography. Civics and history are one subject. I hold that history gives examples for illustrating civics at that stage, for you cannot go into the philosophy of history then. 64. As to vocational courses, is it not a fact that in most secondary schools students are being turned out unfitted to pass examinations which are, so to speak, the "open sesame" for their vocations in life—for instance, for the pass for law or medicine?—lt is rather the other way. There are more of them who take the general course than the other courses. 65. More for matriculation, for instance?—We must take them in proportion to their numbers at the schools. In proportion to the number of those taking vocational courses, not quite so many matriculate, but more qualify for the future professions, because at the schools, and in the courses in which the teaching is directed most to the passing of examinations, a good many pupils pass matriculation; but it does not lead to anything—they do not go on to the University, and are never likely to go. You have increased the number passing matriculation by the number to whom, in my opinion, you have given a wrong education. 66. Do you not think that, just as in Germany, where children are allowed to choose early in life what might be their course, and failure follows, so in New Zealand, where the optional subjects are being taken earlier in life, there may be failure also ?—Germany has less choice of vocation than any civilized country that is really a well-educated country. A parent has to choose when his child is nine years old—or, in some cases, at twelve —whether he will send it to a gymnasium or not. 67. My point is that the choice should be made later in life?—lt is made later here than in Germany. 68. If in New Zealand we are opening the door still wider, and boys are allowed to choose printing, and typewriting, and dairying, and agriculture, is it not a fact that some boys mayfancy farming who may ultimately choose medicine as a life vocation?— That is quite possible; but I do not see how you will help it by making a boy who is going to choose farming refrain from taking a course that may help him by and by. 69. Would it not be better to lay a foundation which will allow of the boy passing an examination which will enable him to go to the University than to teach him subjects which may ultimately be of no use to him, and debar him from taking the course he would otherwise take so as to get to the University? —My answer to that is that you have no business to have a lot of examinations on entrance to a profession, many of them unsuited to the profession itself. Why need a lawyer or a doctor know anything of Latin? There is no necessity for these things in their professions. Much better to have a good general education—to make use of the time he now gives to Latin grammar—for he seldom has more than a scrap of Latin grammar and one author —by taking other culture subjects or professional or vocational subjects. What I said the other day was that, as one who has given a certain amount of time to science, even apart from educational work, I am convinced that a boy can get from the course in elementary agriculture as good a training in scientific method as he can in the more academic subjects, and if you have given him that training you have done all that you can do at that age.