8

P. D. LESLIE.

I.—lla.

76. Did the society take that money into consideration when they arrived at the profits for the tontine period ?—Undoubtedly 77 They have arranged their profits in consideration of the increased amount that will be paid by these assured? —That is so. 78. Then there has been a distinct loss on the tontine? —Yes. 79 Mr Allen,] What would have been the profit that Mr. Larsen would have received if he had remained under the old policy and paid £19 a year?— That is quite impossible for me to answer I could not tell you what the profits would have been. 80. It is quite possible to calculate, is it not? —No. 81 Let me put it in this way What would be the bonuses that Mr Larsen would have been entitled to if he had remained under the old policy?—! could not tell you, but I can say that the bonus would have been less. The amount of the tontine bonus is more than the ordinary J think, however I can give you what you want. 1 have told you how the profits under the tontine, amounting to £15 17s , were calculated. If it had been an ordinary policy the profits would have been £10 145., but, seeing that it was a tontine policy, the profits were £15 175., the additional amount being due to profits arising from death and lapses. 82. I want to find out how the £104 that was offered to Mr Larsen was made up? 83' The Chairman ] I suppose it would be the surrender value plus the £15 profits ?—Exactly That amount of £104 is made up of the cash surrender value of the policy and the cash profits. 84 Mr Massey 1 The indorsement on the back of the proposal reads, 'It is thoroughly understood by me that the amount to be assured mentioned in this proposal is not payable at the expiration of the tontine period, and is only payable at my death." Do you not think that even in that form it is somewhat misleading, inasmuch as it is likely to leave the impression that the amount assured will be paid at the death of the person even if the death does not occur during the tontine period t— No, Ido not think thai impression could be given 85 Do you not think it would have been very much better if something of this sort had been added after the word ' death : If it occurs during the tontine period "J— The premiums are payable until death, consequently the amount of the policy must be payable at death whenever it may occur , 86 Only within the tontine period?— Not at all. The premiums under the policy are payable until the man dies. 87 The Chairman ] Is he paying still?— No ; they are being advanced out of the surrender value of the policy 88 Mr Massey j Then he is still assured ?—Yes. 89' If Mr Larsen continues to pay his premiums he will still be insured right up to the time of his death?— Yes, and his policy in the future will participate under the ordinary system of bonuses. ~ , ~ , , 90. Mr Allen.] Will you explain the difference between cash value and cash surrender value "?—There is no difference. 91. Mr Uogan.] Would a person insured in the office and holding a paid-up policy have t> pay any premium? —Naturally not. 92 In clause 2 of this leaflet circulated at the time and given to Mr Larsen it is stated that the Derson who insured for £2,000 would have at the end of ten years a paid-up policy for £2,600 Would not Mr Larsen be justified in assuming that if he paid up for fifteen years, at the end of tMs time he would have a paid-up policy, and would not have to pay any further premiums ?- Possibly, but, as I pointed out before, the two policies are not alike 93 But this /as given as a sample of the kind of policy that your agent induced Mr Larsen to take up?— Pardon me, he did not take that particular form of policy 9I It is given as an example of a tontine policy, the same as Mr Larsen took up J-It is not exactly the «c . a ing f m clause 2 that he SdCa paid-up policy at the end of the period ?-If he held a similar policy to that, yes. . , », 96. Now, has Mr Larsen signed that indorsement that you speak of I Mr Massey The signature is there all right. Q7 Mr Loan.] Has your office at any time paid a tontine-policy holder more than you I irnnw I «ay No such a thing has never been done. Z' Will you then deny that your office has paid a tontine-policy holder more than it origin"CO Would ,ou be »rp3 if 1 brought evidence Wore .he Commit*, to ,ho,v that your office has done so ?—1 should be very much surprised. 101 Ha! your office not advised Mr and Mrs. Larsen of the accumulation of a bonus of £25, reCen m that be under the new system?-Yes, they are now on the ordinary system.