l>. MCLAREN.]

31

I.—6a.

18. You are aware that when the engine-drivers' agitation first started there was no such question raised as direct representation on the executive of the Amalgamated Society?— Yes. I am aware that the alteration, that has since been made in their rules providing for direct representation was not mooted when the move was first made for separate recognition of the locomotivemen. 19. In fact, it has only come into existence since last session, and then at the suggestion of this Committee :is not that so?— Well, lam prepared to give the Committee that credit. I might say that personally I met the representatives of both sides, and urged them strongly that they should settle their differences, and the engine-drivers' society representatives told me that if the provision in the rules for direct representation had been made some time previously they would probably have fallen in with it. I urged them that it was surely reasonable that when the right course was taken, even if it was late, they should fall in with it. 20. Of course, it is not altogether surprising that a lot of bad blood has been created on both sides, and that the locomotive people now prefer- to try and paddle their own canoe. Now, with regard to the illustration that you gave of the Wellington Wharf Labourers' Union, with its four sections, I think that is a local union existing only in Wellington, is it not?— Yes, that is so. 21 supposing that union was a union dealing with the whole of New Zealand, would you consider it practicable to follow out that sectional system with a joint executive, the same as it is when it is a local union only? —Well, if the industry was purely of a national character, then I should. As one who took a leading part in organizing both the Wharf Labourers' Union and the New Zealand Waterside Workers' Federation, I should have moved for creating the one New Zealand union. Had there been one New Zealand Waterside Workers' Union formed it would have been regarded as detrimental to the interests of the workers to split up their organization if it had once been formed. 22 I should like you to clear up a question raised by myself at the last meeting about the ' no-strike " clause. I thmk you have been one of the leaders of the Federation of Labour?— That is so. 23. Would you consider there would be a greater possibility of securing a strike on the railways under an Amalgamated Union than.there would be if the locomotive-engine drivers had a separate union? —My knowledge of the industrial conditions here and elsewhere teaches me this: that there is a greater impulse towards strikes where there is any element of division and friction. As proof that this is sound, I would point to the fact that the Trades' Union Congress just sitting in Britain at the present time has by an enormous majority carried resolutions for amalgamation of organizations within the one industry, for the purpose of preserving discipline and preventing unnecessary conflict. 24. Would you consider it would be a bad thing for the people of New Zealand that there should be recognition of the Locomotive-engine Drivers' Union, and, if so, why? —I consider it y/ould be a bad thing for the public service, and I believe it would be bad "for this reason: that if two societies are recognized, then there is no ground for refusing three, or four, or five, as the case may be, and there comes in the element of division, which ma)- grow and strengthen until the whole service is disintegrated; and I consider that there is far more clanger of strikes and trouble arising out of that than by the existence of one solid body My- experience is this: that labour bodies even in a large form very seldom sit down deliberately and plan out a strike. A strike arises out of some other cause. It is only where the conflict between capital and labour is as acute as it is in the European continental countries that that element comes in. The Chairman. I just want to say that quite a number of members who presented petitions on behalf of both the Amalgamated Society and the Locomotive-engine Drivers' Association would have been present but for being called away to attend at other Committees, and when they discovered that there were representatives on both sides attending this Committee, they of course stated that they would attend to their other duties, and leave the respective representatives to deal with the various matters before this Committee. Thomas Ronayne examined. (No. 24.) 1 Mr Craigie] How many sections could the Amalgamated Society subdivide into?— There would be a large number-—engine-drivers, firemen, cleaners, blacksmiths, boilermakers, patternmakers, machinists, fitters, carpenters, turners, tinsmiths, plumbers, trimmers, painters, and probably other trades. 2Mr Brown.] And the porters and guards?—l was referring to the tradesmen. Yes, you could have the porters, guards, and signalmen, and so on ad lib

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