I.—B.

46

[c. paire

of putting his foot in a certain place to get the sand, and he gets a car with the sand-punch somewhere else, if he does not happen to notice it when he gets on that car the first thing he does when he meets with an emergency is to put his foot on the spot where the previous punch was and not find it there. 35. Hon. Mr. B. McKenzie] I suppose the occupation of a motorman may be classed as dangerous employment?—lt is. 36. Something like mining and seafaring?— Yes, more so, and his responsibilities are greater too. 37. Do you know whether such restrictions as are asked for by this Bill apply to mine-owners and shipowners, and whether ship-captains and mine-managers have to keep the necessary books and to provide a proper report of any accident occurring, the same as you are asking the Government to apply to the tramway systems throughout New Zealand ?—I do not quite realise the responsibilities of captains in that respect—l am not acquainted with shipping; but I know that engine-drivers and owners of steam-boilers and donkey-engines have to have a certificated engineer. 38. But do you know the captain of a ship has to keep a log-book?— Yes. 39. And in the case of any accident that log-book is always available for any inquiry? —Yes. 40. Your repair-book which you want to be kept so that you can see it is something on the same lines, and should be kept by the same rules? —That is so. 41. I do not know whether you are aware that a mine-manager has to keep a report-book, and any mine-manager has the right to go and examine it at any time? —I did not know that. 42. What you want in regard to this repair-book is something on similar lines? —Yes. 43. You said the Appeal Board was a Star Chamber? —Yes. 44. Whom does it consist of?— The Tramway Committee of the City Council. 45. They are all members of the City Council? —Yes, and they are the Tramway Committee. 46. And they are also your employers?— Yes. 47. And, wdiile no doubt endeavouring to do every justice, there are possibly some suffering from an incurable bias on the side of making the tramways pay?— Not only that, but if the Tramway Committee reverses a decision which they have already given after we appeal, the reversing of that decision to a certain extent goes to show want of confidence 48. To whom do you have to appeal?—To the Tramway Committee. 49. Still to your employers? —Yes. " 50. And who are also parties to the case? —Just so. 51. So that they are. both defendants and judges at the same time?-Yes. I should like to state that we have nearly always had a good hearing from the Tramway Committee in the case of an appeal. 52. In the case of the Appeal Board in Wellington which you reckon is a Star Chamber, who would you like to appeal to? —As I have already said, we suggest a representative from the employers, one from the employees, and one to be mutually agreed upon, and, failing an agreement, one to be appointed by the Government —something like the Conciliation Board. That, we take it, would be an independent Appeal Board, and that is what is wanted. 53. Did you read the Bill carefully ?—Yes. 54. Do you see anything in it that would be likely to necessarily hamper or in any way interfere with the tramway management in the City of Wellington or anywhere else? Clause 2 says, " If such a person reports that any alterations, repairs, or additions to the said tramway, rolling-stock, plant, appliances, or machinery respectively are necessary." Do you think there is anything in that clause which would necessarily hamper the management of the trams in Wellington or Auckland?—l have always l>cen under the impression that the Government had the power to authorise an inspection whenever they deemed necessary, and, so far as I can see, this clause does not extend the powers in any way. 55. Under the Mining Act at the present time, if the Inspector of Mines reports to the Minister of Mines that the ventilation of a mine is in any way defective, the Minister can force that minemanager to take proper steps to make an inspection? —Yes. 56. Do you think there is anything in this Bill which gives further power than that?— No. I think it gives the Minister power to inflict a nominal penalty instead of an excessive one as previously. .... ~ 57. Mr. O'Shea] You say that you consider this Bill is no wider in its scope than the present law? —No, I do not think so. 58. Do you know that section 2 gives the Minister power to make any alteration that he thinks necessary or that the Inspecting Engineer thinks necessary ?—lf the Bill gives that power it might appear to be a very great power if it was not used judiciously. 59. You would not consent to the control of all your men being left to one man?— Without an appeal, certainly not. . . . 60. And you would expect the Corporation to appeal against an alteration in their Urder in Council?— Certainly. . , , '-6 61. You mentioned the question of the uniformity of the equipment of cars J—Yes. 62. You say the cars should be uniform? —Yes. 63. As I understand it, most of the actions of a motorman on a car come to be a sort ot second nature—you act immediately?— That is not so. How do you mean? 64. Supposing you get into an emergency, you act immediately? —Yes. 65. And it is necessary in order that you should be able to protect the public that the equipment should be uniform?— Quite so. 66 There is a variation in the equipment of the cars in the colony?—I cannot speak tor the whole colony, because I have not been connected with the other systems. I can speak definitely of the Corporation tramways here, and the equipment is not uniform.