I.—B.

J. C. H. MOIB.]

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110. What complaint have you to make about the loose leaf? —The complaint we have is that you have a car booked up, say, a week previous, and you may have the same car again to-day and have an accident, and that accident is the result of the trouble which has gradually grown up, but we have nothing to refer back to. 111. Who writes the report?— The motorman. 112. But if you have to write a report on a loose leaf, what is there to complain about? — Because we have nothing to refer back to. 113. You are simply asked to report on a loose leaf for that day?—We put in a report-form, and that is in the repair-book for the use of the shed-foreman. 114. Mr. Davey] How long has this loose-leaf system been in use? —I am not sure of the exact time, but about seven or eight months —since there was an accident in Cuba Street. 115. And what was the practice previous to that? —We had a book with every leaf intact, and we ourselves could refer back; but ever since that loose-leaf book has been there we have had no chance of referring back to see if a car was defective before or whether it was O.K. 116. Are the loose leaves filed? —I could not say. 117. Did you ever know of a case where any motorman desired to refer to a loose leaf and asked for it?—No, not a loose leaf. I have never known of any man who asked to refer back to a loose leaf. 118. Have you ever had any experience of the air brake? —No. 119. Regarding the examination of motormen, say, at Dunedin, Christchurch, or Wellington, I understood you to say that a general certificate would not be of much use to motormen, but that a colonial certificate would be useful? —I said I thought it would be more useful for motormen to have it. 120. Say a man comes from the Dunedin service or the Christchurch service—has he to go through another examination ? —Yes. 121. But he should be easily able to pass it? —Yes, if he has been a competent motorman in other places. 122. Mr. Lang] You spoke of the number of people killed on the Auckland trams, but can you tell the Committee the percentage of deaths in proportion to the passengers travelling?— No, I could not. I was referring to the gradual killing. I meant to say that the motormen had such an amount of labour to put in through having to use those hand brakes in Auckland. 123. You were speaking of the work the men had to do? —Yes. 124. Not the accidents?— No. 125. Do you know of any cases in which deaths have been caused by defective brakes?—l have not got, the names, but Mr. R.osser mentioned the names of those men who have been seriously injured. 126. The Chairman] You spoke of the appeal being one-sided : what do you mean exactly? Tf we go down to the Tramways Committee with an appeal against their decision and the Engineer's decision for dismissing' a man from the service, we go and give evidence on behalf of the man ; they sit there and hear all we have to say, and then we are dismissed; and they send us a reply giving their decision some time after, probably it may be the next day or a week after; but it is really no appeal at all, because we do not hear their side of the case at all. 127. Hon. Mr. B. McKenzie] They are both judge and employer?— Yes. 128. The Chairman] And does your grievance with regard to the loose leaf have any connection with the appeal? —Tt w 7 ould have if we wanted to prove that a car had been defective for some time back. If that special car had a brake-failure to-day, and the brakes also failed two or three months previously, we could prove that by referring back to the book, but at present we cannot. Tt would assist us in helping the man with his defence. 129. You do not know whether the Tramways Committee have a number of those loose leaves before them? —I do not know, but, we never have them to refer to. 130. Mr. Myers] Yon have never worked in Auckland? —No. 131. Then what you have said in regard to the Auckland conditions is necessarily hearsay?— Well, I have not worked there, but T have seen the men at work in Auckland. 132. Just now and again for a day perhaps? —Yes. 133. But T take it that you will not dispute that what you have said about Auckland is based mostly upon hearsay necessarily from the Auckland men? —Yes, what I have seen on one occasion when'l have been in' Auckland.'and the extra amount of work the men have to put in to apply the brakes. 134. That is the objection that the men hay great amount of work they have got to do to apply the brakes ?—Yes. 135. Tn regard to the loose-leaf system, so long as a file is kept of all those reports, provided that, you have an opportunity at any inquiry to refer to them, do you not think that an independent report day by day from the motorman in charge of a car is better than a book in which he can make reference to the back pages or to which he can make reference as he makes his report for a particular day? No, it has not been the habit of any man to refer back to make his report. You always report your car that night as you find it. 136. But so long as nothing goes wrong and the right is given you of referring to the file for any car, you would be satisfied surely?—No, Tdo not think we should, because when it is taken away like"that leaves can be lost or mislaid. Tf the book is always there if is intact. 137. You must assume for the purpose of my question that the officers of the Corporation or tramway company are honourable men ?—T am not referring to the fact that they are not honourable men. T say a loaf may be lost or destroyed. 138. T say a file is kept, and T am asking you if the purpose of your men would not be served so long as you bad access to any file in the event of anything going wrong?—As the position is 6—T. 8.