F. CAMPBELL.]

I.—3a

7

46. We understand clearly now what you want: you want the freehold of this land at valuation ? —Yes, that is the desire. 47. That it should be taken over by the borough, the money found, the consideration paid, and then the borough to deal with the tenants, or to hold on behalf of the tenants until such time as they become freehold tenants?— The tenant should have the right of acquiring the freehold of the section by paying to the borough what it cost the borough, and those who did not wish to pay would remain tenants; but we would do away with the system of valuation, and also do away with arbitration, and each tenant would have a more secure tenancy. 48. When you say, do away with the system of arbitration, you mean that the reserves must remain at a fixed rental so as to obviate any arbitration: the rents would remain at a fixed rate no matter how things may develop, or how matters may increase or decrease all round?— The Borough Council could not be expected to take any risk in the purchase; the lessees would have to be prepared to cover them in their purchase. I think, having regard to all the surrounding circumstances, the principle I have mentioned would be the most equitable way of dealing with the whole question. I might say again that lam pleased to see so many of the Native race here to-day, and I can assure them that no lessee on the reserve wishes to take advantage of them, but all desire that they should receive a fair rental for their property. I speak for myself, and I think I also voice the opinion of every leaseholder on the Reserve. 49. Hon. Mr. Ngata.] If they object to giving the freehold to the lessees, what is to be the position? —There would be great difficulty hereafter. 50. What is to be the solution of the thing—would you use compulsion ?—No, I would not say, use compulsion. 51. You would not like to see compulsion used to divest them of the freehold? —No. I think we have arrived at that stage of intelligence when we can settle these matters without resorting to compulsion. 52. In making these proposals I do not suppose the lessees in any way represent the borough— there is nothing official before us so far?— The borough by a resolution has confirmed their action. 53. It is by accident that the borough is composed of lessees, or largely lessees? —The freeholders are lessees largely. 54. You do not want the Committee to assume that the Council is making these proposals?— No, but the Council will carry out all the proposals. There were resolutions passed at the last meeting of the Council asking the Hon. Mr. Carroll and Sir Joseph Ward to assist the deputation where possible. 55. You are making certain very definite proposals purporting to emanate from the Council, or with the approval of the Council? —Yes. 56. And we have nothing before us from the Council as a Council? —I am justified in saying that, as a member of the deputation before this Committee to-day, there will be no difficulty at all in raising the money to meet all requirements. 57. Hon. Mr. Guinness.] If the Council will not do it, private people will do it for them? — Of course, they will. 58. Hon. Mr. Ngata.] Then if legislation were introduced enabling the borough to acquire from the Public Trustee these reserves at valuation, and on the valuation a certain price was fixed for the freehold, have you any idea how the borough is going to finance that?—No; that would be a que.stion I could not deal with now. 59. How would it be secured, for instance, pending the raising of the money? —It would be secured, I suppose, upon the rateable property of the borough in the ordinary way of a loan. 60. That would be over the freehold portion of the town as well as the leasehold? —I should think so. I might state for your information that the freeholders are nearly all leaseholders, but it has not their sympathy in the same way. 61. But at the same time you have to deal with the reserve apart from the freehold, and quite apart from the intermingling of interests? —Yes. 62. Would you suggest that this would be secured on the leasehold as well as the freehold?—l should think so. 63. Hon. Mr. Guinness.] That is to say, the whole of the assets of the Borough of Greymouth would be responsible? —Yes, they would be responsible. 64. Hon. Mr. Ngata.] Apart from the cost of the arbitration, is the present system of arbitration working satisfactorily? —I think the Department has not shown the spirit or desire to meet the lessees. 65. According to the statement of the Public Trustee supplied yesterday, the rents work out at from £3 15s. to £3 17s. 6d. per cent, on the unimproved value? —Yes. As.to the unimproved value of tliis property, it is a matter lam not at all satisfied with. It is a big question to deal with, and, in a democratic country like this which we boast of, I think in no case where it can be shown that the tenants have been the creators of that improved increment should it go to the landlord to the exclusion of the tenant who made it; because the tenant is the creator of all the improvements, and it applies to the European race as well as the Maori race. Any person who visited the Reserve in 1865 and visited it now would come to the conclusion that the present tenants have added largely to the unearned increment of that property. 66. I understand the system of arbitration is this : that the rent is fixed by the Public Trustee?— Yes. 67. If the tenant objects to that, then it is referred to arbitration? —Yes. 68. The Public Trustee nominates one arbitrator, the lessee nominates the other, and then the two together nominate the umpire?— Yes. 69. And it happens in practice that the umpire is a local man?— Not necessarily so.