1.—9.

38

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so, because a later clause provides that there must be seven to form an association. Now, there are a good many industries in an industrial district xvhich do not number seven employers—for instance, in the freezing industry, xvhere only one or txvo exist in a district. There ought to be some provision to meet a case of that kind. I should also like to see an alteration made in subsection (2) of section 32, xvhich states that " an industrial union or an industrial association, being a party to a dispute, may appear before the Council by its chairman or secretary, or by any number of persons," &c. The Committee must be axvare from evidence that reaches it from various sources that one of our troubles has been that disputes have been managed by men xxdio are not immediately interested in the industry affected, and I should very much like to see that clause amended to provide that the parties appearing in any dispute must be interested in the industry. I do not think there are any other points I need refer it, unless the Committee xvishes to ask me any questions. 8. The Chairman.] Has not your evidence as a whole been against the present system?—l am afraid I must confess that it has. 9. By that are xve to understand that you desire the repeal or absolute sweeping-away of the system as it noxv stands, xvithout having anything to take its place?—l do not suggest that. I think everything should be done to make conciliation effective, and I xvould not suggest the sweep-ing-away of the arbitration clauses completely. I should like to see the present Bill given a trial. When I say lam not very sanguine about the results you have to take that for xvhat it is worth. What xve do xvant is some system of conciliation which xvould be effective. 10. Was not that the desire of the original framer of the first Act? —I believe it xvas, but we have now got very far away from his original desires. 11. But are you not standing in the position of the Hon. Mr. Reeves in 1891 and 1892, when he had a very earnest desire to get the conflicting parties together to talk the matter over in some simple manner?—He tried to make the Act too rigid. The Arbitration Court was established as a kind of Supreme Court, xvith power to enforce its awards from the beginning. 12. You say you alxvavs queried the compulsory clauses in the Act, and had not faith in them? —Yes. 13. Do you think any legislation x\ r ould prevent men in any industry from striking in the last extremity? —I can hardly imagine any Act that can prevent that. You cannot stand over a man with a whip. You may take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink. 14. Your highest ideal is that any such Bill, in xxdiatever form we may pass it, may be successful in minimising outbreaks? —I do not fear outbreaks. 15. You discount their effects?— Yes. I believe the arbitration system has cost the country a great deal more during the last fifteen years than any strikes would have cost it in the same period, and I do not see why you should prevent men having the right to strike. Why should you compel a man to xvork xvhen he does not xvant to? 16. You spoke of the minimum wage, and said it was immoral: is it not always open to an employer to give his employee a higher wage than the minimum ?—Yes. 17. Is that frequently done?— Yes. 18. Is that not a direct incentive to a good man to excel?--Yes; but that does not cover the case of men getting more than they can earn. 19. That can be provided for by the permit system, can it not?— No. 20. To us there appears to be a permit system under which a slow worker can obtain a smaller wage than is fixed by the Court. A. normal standard wage is fixed by the Court?—lt is the minimum ; that becomes the maximum. 21. It is the rate at which the bulk of the men are paid?— Yes. 22. And over and above that it is optional for the employer to give a skilled and energetic man a higher rate?— Yes. But, suppose 10s. a day is established, xvhich is probably 2s. a day more than the average men have been getting. If the employer has to bring up tire men who cannot earn the 10s., it folloxvs that the efficiency represented by the Bs. becomes the standard. The employer cannot afford to pay on the higher scale, because he is losing on the less efficient men. It is the Bs.-a-day man xvho fixes the standard of efficiency, and the others grade themselves down to it. 23. The surplus value of those men who are really worth more than the rate formerly paid makes up in a rough sort of way for the loss on those xvho are beloxv the standard of efficiency, and consequently there is not much encouragement for an employer to go higher?—ln most cases he cannot add appreciably to his wages-cost. You have to keep the labour-cost of your product doxvn, and if that increases every year you ought to cut down the wages of the higher men in order to keep up the level of the inferior men. 24. Do you mean to say that the moral fibre of workmen generally has deteriorated?— Yes, it has been deteriorating for many years past. 25. Before the arbitration system came into force?—l cannot say that. 26. You speak from, your oxvn knowdedge and experience?— Yes; I do not say that every man has deteriorated, but I take the average. 27. Are there any causes outside of xvhat you have been discussing?— Yes. 28. Can you name them? —I think some of the false social ideals xvhich are being preached have a considerable amount to do with it. 29. Do you think there is a broadcast feeling among the xvorkers that labour is dishonourable and discreditable?— There is a considerable change in the way in xvhich they regard their work compared xvith my recollection of twenty years ago. 30. Do you mean that it is not executed xvith the same cheerfulness and readiness? They have come to regard their work in a different light and spirit. 31. You would not call that a better spirit?—No, distinctly the reverse.