H.—2l.

40

[h. patten.

4. How long have you had an acquaintance with the working of Te Oranga Home I —lt is spread over a period just under two years. 5. How often have you been in the habit of visiting the Home? —I have been there as substitute for Mr. Smail. 6. In what capacity does Mr. Smail visit the Home?—To take afternoon service on Sundays. 7. I may take it you only visited the Home on Sunday afternoons?— Yes. 8. How long would you remain there ?—Service would be about an hour. I would probably be in the Home an hour and a half. 9. Do you wish to make any statement of your views based on your experience?—l may say I have had considerable experience in dealing with the class of material such as you have at Burnham and Te Oranga. It is a matter I have studied somewhat and taken an interest in, otherwise I should not have visited these institutions. Judging from what I saw of the girls, they appearea to be well cared for and cheerful. I have formed my opinion with reference to the Matron and the general conduct of the Home, as far as I was able to judge, from the time I was there. I think the Home has gone in. the direction of doing these girls good. Looking at these girls as they are assembled, I cannot see anything in their faces indicative of hard treatment, and I think any harsh treatment that young people have been subjected to leaves its mark to a certain extent on the features. I did not see any such marks. 10. You do not mean physical marks, of course?— No. I am aware that the material they have in this institution is very difficult to deal with. I am the last in the world to be in favour of any undue harshness, or anything of that sort; but whilst that is so, I am firmly of opinion there are cases where corporal punishment is necessary, both in the interests of the inmates themselves and of the community at large. The girls were always attentive and respectful when I was speaking to them. I had no personal conversation with any of the inmates. I think here I might be allowed to say that I think the Matron has qualifications that are necessary for the conduct of such an institution. She is cheerful, and of a cheerful disposition, and I think she is not lacking in kindness. I also believe she has a measure of firmness, otherwise she would not be fitted for the position. I have seen the reports in the papers about the employment the girls are put to. I think the manual labour they have to do there is of a helpful character, and must tend to do them good, physically and morally. It has been reported to me that many girls who have left the Home have turned out well, and such cases are evidence that good work has been done. That is all I have to say. . 11. Mr. Salter.] How many Sundays do you think you have been there altogether?— Nine or ten Sundays, as near as possible. 12. These comprise the extent of your visits to the Home?— Yes. 13. And, as your service took an hour, you had only half an hour to spare to look round? — About that, Sometimes a little more, on occasions. 14. The girls, of course, were all dressed in their Sunday best, if they have a Sunday best there ?—I presume so. 15. Were all the girls at the service? —With the exception of the Catholic girls, I think so. - 16. You saw nothing in their faces indicative of harsh treatment?— No. 17. Do you think a girl who had been severely punished during the week would be likely to show that in her face on Sunday?—l think so. I believe I should. 18. You say, in your opinion, corporal punishment is necessary'in certain cases?— Yes. 19. What are these cases?—Of course, I am not in a position to judge, but with the material you have there you must meet with cases where it is quite in accordance with reasonable commonsense that the punishment should be tried. 20. Would you consider that for a girl twelve cuts with a strap J in. thick would be severe punishment or otherwise?—lt depends how it is laid on. 21. You are the father of a family? —Yes. 22. In your experience, have you found that more can be done by kindness than by severity? —Yes, according to the disposition of the children ; but if you have children with criminal instincts, who have been brought up in crime, that is altogether a .afferent thing. You must know that, 23. What would be your opinion with regard to locking a girl in a cell for a small offence?— Of course, I do not know what the offence is. 24. Well, for scorching an aprorKwhile ironing?—Of course, the people in the institution are best able to judge whether it was carelessness or not. 25. Would you consider that harsh treatment?— No. 26. Mr. Russell.] Have you seen the cell: it is simply an ordinary room?— No. I have seen the detention-yard. But if that treatment goes to make her more careful in the future, that is right punishment, I should say. 27. Mr. Salter.] Then, you are practically here to uphold the Matron in all she has done? —No, not necessarily. I hold no brief for the Matron. lam speaking in the interests of the children. 28. Your opinion, formed after seeing her nine times on Sunday afternoons, is that the Matron has every qualification for the position—she is cheerful and has a measure of kindness and a measure of firmness: you have gleaned all that of her character after seeing her nine times? —Well, I have more conversation with the Matron than with the girls. 29. Do you consider, because the Matron is cheerful and kind whilst, with you, she would also cheerful and kind with the girls?—l do not infer it would be so, but so far as I am able to judge from what I have seen of the Matron, that is so. 30. You say you have read the report with regard to the physical work of cutting down trees and cross-cutting and splitting, and so forth: is that work you would give your own girl to do? —That is no more to the point than your other was.