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W. MCLEAN.

20. You have not formed an association yet for New Zealand ?—No; we have a number of spiritualistic associations. We are forming an association, and hope that by February we shall get it into working-order. It is to our advantage that nothing is done in the guise of spiritualism except by suitable persons. That is our object in forming a national organization. That would ■nean having some control over these people. Unless a person were known by these societies he should not be allowed to practise. 21. As to the metaphysicians who are not spiritualists: do you not think they should form an association 1— That would be for them to do if they chose. Under this Bill, I tell you frankly that if my friend was ill and I could treat him I would do so, even if I were sent to prison for it. 22. Would you favour the proposal that all those who have been in practice for three years or over as bona fide metaphysicians should not be required to be examined under this Bill ?—Yes. 23. And would you recommend a regulation being made that all future metaphysicians should pass an examination in physiology and anatomy?— They have to do that if they come under that particular branch. 24. What I mean is this: Should there not be some test of the person's knowledge as to physiology and anatomy, and also as to his ability to treat successfully from a mental and magnetic standpoint? —Not necessarily from a mental and magnetic standpoint, for this reason: Frequently, if a person goes into a trance, the assumption is that the person operating in the trance condition is a qualified man, simply using the entity as the instrument. 25. Should there not be some test as to the person's ability? —If he is practising as a metaphysician there might be, but if practising merely as a mental and magnetic healer it is quite a different thing. 26. I understand that Messrs. Helps and Shaw, of Christchurch, simply treat from the mental point of view, and they are not spiritualists in any sense?— What is the mental treatment? You enter there upon a great field of thought. What is the mind? Does the mind act apart from the body? If it does not it is not worth a snap of the fingers. 27. Mr. Gray.] Who is to judge of the capabilities of these metaphysicians or mental healers? What would you suggest? —I do not offer any opinions with regard to metaphysicians. They are a school by themselves. But with regard to magnetic and mental or spiritual healers, there are societies established in their interests. We have a registered society in this city which is registered under the Unclassified Societies Registration Act. We have a committee, with property of our own, and a president and secretary. Undoubtedly, if these persons had to be registered they would need to have some kind of certificate from the society that they were honest and capable people. As President I would not like to associate with any person who was a fraud, and therefore we try to keep our platform as respectable as possible. We have visitors from other parts of the world of good standing, and we have a lady now coming here who stands very high in reputation. Therefore, so far as the spiritualistic and magnetic healers are concerned, they will be obliged to register their societies. 28. What registered societies are there? —We have one in Wellington. I have been president of it for twenty-five years. 29. Are there other registered societies? — Our society is the Wellington Association of Spiritualists (Registered), and we have a hall in Kent Terrace called the New Century Hall. 30. Have you any standard examination? —No. What happens frequently is this: There are what we term developing circles or classes. I carried on a class for nearly forty-six weeks, and had thirty-five members as a start, but they came down to twenty-eight. They all attended for the whole forty-six weeks, and I never charged any of them a penny. They got instruction, and some of them got control in the trance condition. Sometimes they go outside your influence altogether. Take the case of the great seer, Andrew Jackson Davis, who was only a shoemaker's apprentice, and at fourteen years of age had never been to school. He was put into one of these conditions by Professor Grimes and got out of the professor's control. He has written " Nature's Divine Revelations," and knows a great deal of the physical sciences. Sir Oliver Lodge has quite recently stated in Birmingham that soon the whole of the sciences will have to be placed on a spiritualistic or psychological basis. 31. Is the power to treat cases of mental or physical disease not the result of a gift that some person has, rather than the result of training?— But you may have the gift and not know it unless you have it developed. Many people had the gift of music before the piano came into use. 32. The mere fact of a number of persons joining your association or society and being connected with it for a certain time does not justify them in practising the treatment of disease? — Quite so. I will give you the case of a gentleman who is practising now in Wellington—a Mr. Hancock. He was a shoemaker, and had no education whatever; but he sat for three years developing this gift. I know what I say because I assisted. He sat for three years, and has been practising ever since. As I said, he had no education, and yet I think he has been fairly successful. A prominent Wellington business man told me that he had done more good to his wife than any medical man in the town. 33. It is more a gift than a matter of training? —Undoubtedly it is a gift, but it requires a lot of sitting and patience. You want to have the patience of Job to undertake this work. 34. You referred to several cases, and one in connection with a patient in a hospital: was that simply a mental disease? —It was a case of neurosis of the worst kind. It was pure obsession in the case of the patient I alluded to. Otherwise, do you think that in ten minutes I could have effected what I did? They had to put the food in by a little window. You can inquire from Dr. Hacon as to whether the facts are what I state. The food had to be put through the window, and they could not get any clothing on to the patient, and yet in ten minutes' time after I had got the patient by the two hands I was able, by using the force 1 had, to effect a cure. The first remark of the patient was, " Where am I? " and I said, " Quick, out of this." There was a cab at the door, and I had her out with the sister. She was taken from the Hokitika Mental Hospital in

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