I,—9a.

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[W. T. YOUNG.

petent to conduct the case before the Board or the Court, and further than that, there is very little evidence brought before the Board. 106. The objection principally to the abolition of the Boards is that you cannot get qualified men within the ranks of the unions to sit on these Councils ?—No. 107. And that there are only some fourteen men in the colony qualified to look after the interests of labour according to that statement?—l beg your pardon. You are entirely wrong when you saj' there are only fourteen men in this colony qualified to conduct the affairs of labour. We have more than that number in the City of Wellington alone. 108. There are none but paid secretaries of the unions qualified to conduct these cases?—No, sir, I do not say that; but the only man who is independent of an employer for his bread and butter is a paid officer. You may call him a paid secretary or a paid president, which you like. 1 know if 1 had to depend upon getting work on a ship for my living 1 would not get it. 109. Are these the only grounds upon which you object to Industrial Councils —that there would be no men qualified to take up the duties? —One principal point is this: that you have to apply to the Governor for the setting-up of the Council, and if he thinks fit that the dispute is of sufficient importance he will set up a Council, but if it is otherwise he will not do so. 110. But if that clause is made mandatory so that it will provide that he shall set up a Council, what then ?—The main objection is that the men sitting on the Council have to go back to their boss after the case is over. 111. In reply to Mr. Arnold you said that Conciliation Boards would be improved by the appointment of experts to assist the members of the Board ?—1 said I understand that the law at present provided for that. 112. You said, in. reply to a question, that it would improve the Boards?— Yes. 113. What are these experts going to do when they go back to their employer?—lt is hardly worth while to misrepresent the position of an assessor. -He does not sit in public—he sits in camera to advise the members of the Board. 114. Have you ever known any assessors in any Court who did not sit on the Bench and hear the whole of the evidence? —In nautical inquiries assessors sit with the Magistrate. 115. Do you know of any case under the Arbitration Act where the assessors did not sit with the others?— Yes, in the case in 1897, to which I have referred. That was the Seamen's case, which was heard by the Board in the Government Printing Office. In that case there were two assessors appointed—one on each side—and they sat with the members of the Board in camera, and advised on questions of technicality only. 116. Are there any other oases?—l believe there are other instances where there have been assessors appointed, but I cannot specifically mention them. 117. You think there is no risk at all to men when acting as assessors and who are well known to the employers, and jet there is a risk in the case of men who are appointed to sit over a table ? — Yes, the assessor does not enter into debatable matter, but simply advises as to technical matters. He merely advises as to whether a coat is a coat or a vest. 118. And what shall be paid for it? —That is not the function of an assessor. 119. I do not care what position he is in, he is there to represent the workers, and you sa} r he is not likely to be a marked man ?—Yes, because, as I said before, he does not enter into debatable matter. 120. You say they would not be marked men in that case, but they would be if they sat roulid a table?—l have not said anything of the kind. I said you can get men of sufficient backbone to give evidence before a Board or a Court, but whilst that is so the large majority—l might say 99 per cent, of them—are not sufficiently competent to conduct a case for the members of their union. 121. Is there anything in this Act which prohibits a union appointing any one it likes to conduct a case before the Arbitration Court?— The Court is hardly involved in this Bill. 122. Is there anything in this Bill which prevents any person appearing for the union before the Court?— No. 123. As far as the Court is concerned it is open to the union to get any one to appear for it that it likes, other than a lawyer ?—Yes, if the Court granted the power to appeal. 124. Do you think that power should not be allowed? —In this Bill it is proposed to give the Court that power. 125. Yes, to open and hear the whole case or only the part in dispute: has that not been asked for by the unions all along?— Yes, we ask that anything agreed to before the Boards shall be deemed to be agreed to before the Court. 126. The proposal is just the same here?— But you are altering the representation. 127. We are altering the representation so that the men in the industry shall conduct the case: is that not a proper thing?—No, we think it is altogether improper. 128. You think that men without any knowledge of the industry are the best able to recommend an amicable arrangement?— Well, I am not a practical tramwayman, and I am secretary of that union, but I venture to say there are few men who can tell me anything about it. 129. Do you not think there are men equally capable of doing the work in the tramway service? —I do not know of any single man who is able to come forward and argue their case before the City Council. 130. They are not fit to discuss the matter with the City Council?—An effort was made in the City Council to get the men to appoint some other person as secretary, and this was the answer the union gave to the Council, that no person holding a position in the tramway service should be eligible for the position. 131. T have a telegram from the Auckland Tramway Union stating that the majority of their members desire this Bill? —Thank you, I will make inquiries about that. 132. With regard to the trades-union funds being kept in the colony: will remember that I told your deputation that so far as that clause was concerned, it was put in at the request of a union which wanted to protect its members in the colony, and I said that that could go out. with regard to the power of collecting contributions from non-unionists, the clause is optional, is it not ?—That is true.