S. -WILLIAMS.]

55

G.—s.

119. That £500 as sheep belonged to the estate?— Ye.--, 120. The Chairman".] Do you consider that at the end of your present lease you will have to account for the sheep to the trustees?—lt is a liability still to be adjusted. 121. Mr. Lee.] Am I right in saying this: that this flock of sheep was taken over by you and utilised by you on the estate ; but on the other hand you have done so much for the estate that it exceeds in value anything the sheep may have produced?— Yes, as far as the original flock is concerned. Of course, if there had not been an equivalent, interest would have been paid, and it now rests with the trustees to adjust matters upon the termination of the lease. 122. All the same, you admit that this flock of sheep is part of the estate ?—I admit there is an adjustment to be made. The claim against me is for those sheep originally ; the liability is for the sheep without any further increase. This is a matter for adjustment between the trustees and myself. 123. Mr. Eliott.] Do I understand this: 'hat when you took the lease you tooTc the sheep over with the lease?— That was the original arrangement. 124. You consider that you are only liable for 6,137 sheep that you took over with the first lease?-—Yes, I might mention other lands let, on the same terms. I think in Mr. Nairn's case when the valuation was made of the stock the agreement was that they were to be replaced at the end of the lease —to be replaced, if required, at the end of the lease. 125. Mr. Lee.] Presumably there are six thousand sheep on the estate: should not they be taken into account?—l take it that my liability is for the sheep at the time they were taken over. 126. What was the value put on them?— They were valued by two valuers, and I think they were valued at Bs. or 9s. per head. This was at a much later period after freezing was well established. 127. The Chairman.] What number do you say you took over from the trust?—6,loo. I admit there is a liability to be adjusted. 128. Mr. Ellison.] Mr. Coleman stated yesterday that there were some other sheep running with yours: do you remember how many there were?— No. 129. Did any other of the Natives have sheep running with yours?— No. 130. The Chairman.] Sir William Russell spoke of some contemplated exchange with reference to the house? —It was mentioned at a meeting of the trustees. Sir William Russell said, " Let Mr. Warren make an application." In the meantime nothing has been done. Te Kereama te Kaho examined. 131. The Chairman.] Where do you live? —At Te Hauke. lam a member of the Ngatimanawakawa Tribe. 132. Tell us as shortly as you can about the giving of this land for the purposes of education? —As I understood things, Mr. Colenso was the first missionary here. I cannot remember the year when Archdeacon Williams came. Mr. Colenso ceased his work, and the Rev. Mr. Williams came to preach the Gospel. Then the Maoris said, "We will have Williams," and the)' kept him. We showed him the land where we would put him. Subsequent to that Mr. Williams asked to teach our children, and he said if so he would consent, to stop in the district, and we agreed to that. The Rev. Mr. Williams took the children —myself amongst the number—to Otaki. We children remained there for three years, and then returned to Hawke's Bay. Mr. Williams accompanied us back to Hawke's Bay. When we arrived in the district we confirmed the gift of land. The land was given to the Rev. Mr. Williams. The land was not given to the Bishop nor to any other person ;it was given direct to the Rev. Mr. Williams. In the year when To Hapuku died we heard that the land had been exchanged with some other person. The people assembled at Te Hauke, and the Rev. Mr. Williams came there. I asked Mr. Williams to return me my land, because I had heard that it had been transferred to some one else. Mr. Williams said that the land had been Crown-granted to the Bishop, so I said no more. My elder people said to me, "Why don't you have some consideration for your clergyman," and so I said no more. 133. Mr. Ngata.] Did you sign any document?— No. 134. Mr. Williams has stated that the meeting was held on the occasion of the arrival of Sir George Grej'?—l heard of that meeting. 135. Did you hear the story told by Sir George Grey about catching the fish with the bait?— No. 136. You were one of the Rev. Mr. Williams's boys at school?— Yes. 137. How was the school conducted in those days?—We were taught arithmetic and reading. 138. Did you grind flour ?—No. 139. Who was the head of the hapu who gave the land to Mr. Williams?—Noa Taikiwa, Te Hapuku confirmed it as head chief. 140. Are you acquainted with the school-work being done at Te Aute at the present time?— Yes, I have seen the school occasionally. They do a great deal of work there. 141. Do you, the donors of the land, approve of the work that is being done at Te Aute now?— I do not know how to reply to that question. 142. Mr. Ellison.] At the time the land was handed over for the Te Aute trust were there any people living on it? —Yes, my elders were living there. There were also some other haptis living there. - - - ■ - ■ - Wiremu Erueti examined. 143. The Chairman.] Have you any statement to make in regard to this trust?—l was born in 1861, at Te Aute, and have been there ever since. The Rev. Mr. Colenso lived at Te Ptini, and he assembled the Natives there to hear the Church of England mission. They tell of one occasion when three hundred couples were married, and only one ring was used for the ceremony. After Mr. Colenso got into trouble the Maoris thought over the matter and came to the conclusion that as they had no minister they would have the Rev. Mr. Williams, Mr. Williams, who was then living