G.—s.

S. WILLIAMS.]

15

wanted to make quite sure I was coming back. They sent a deputation to me saying they wished to understand whether I was coming back myself or not, because they said distinctly, "If you go away and send somebody else, not one inch of land will we give." 174. What became of these written documents ?—They were placed in the hands of the General Government. When the deed was signed Mr. G. S. Cooper was present, and old Hapuku, the paramount chief, who gave the laud, said to me, " What a rum lot }-ou are. We give a block of land to you, and you calmly dictate to us to give it to somebody else," I explained to him that I could only receive it on this condition, and he said at last, " If you will be so foolish I cannot help you," and he signed the deed. 175. Who prepared the deed?—lt was prepared by the Government. 176. Was there any plan on it-of the land?—l do not recollect. 177. Does it refer to the main block or to the whole lot?—To the Maori grants only. Were the trusts specified in that deed: did the deed set forth the trust upon which the land was to be held by the Crown ?—lt was given for a school. I myself did not know that there was any difference in the language of the grants until some years afterwards. I asked Bishop Selwyn how it was that it was for a school for the children of both races. He said that they foresaw that there would be a number of Europeans living among or near to the Maoris who would not object to their children being educated with the Maoris, and it was to prevent the trustees feeling obliged to exclude these children from the school that this was done. 179. Do you say that the Natives understood that the land that was given was for the purpose of education for both races, or was it to be exclusively for the one race? —The term does not apply to the Native gift, I think you will see. The Native gift was to be for Maoris. 180. The land was given by the Natives for the Natives only?— Yes. 181. And the land given by the Government was for both races?— Yes, there the clause comes in for both races; but we never understood by that that it was to be divided between the two races. For instance, St. Stephen's School in Auckland was given for both races, and although it was conducted under Sir George Grey's own eye and Bishop Selwyn, I do not think there was any English boy there. Canon Mac Murray tells me that only one or two English boys have ever been there. 182. Two of these grants of land were grants which the Natives gave?— Yes. One of these grants is for 4,244 acres, the 244 acres having been added later. When I asked that the 244 acres should be included, I had no knowledge of the difference in the wording of the grants. The area of 244 acres is part of the Maori gift. Then, again, the trustees surrendered a portion of one grant to the Crown to be exchanged, and in issuing the grant for the exchange the Crown inserted the words, " for both races," whereas it was exchanged for a Maori gift. Ido not know whether that was what was in the minds of the Natives the other day when they said there had been a mistake. 183. But you saj- the Government grant of 4,000 acres was rightly granted for the benefit of both races?— Yes, they could do as they liked about it. But it was promised to me to support my school. 184. This grant of 1,408 acres was a Native grant, and the trust there is " upon trust for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants "? —Yes. 185. Then that piece of 382 acres to the south of the original grant was cut off, and in the Crown grant the trust sets forth that it is for the benefit of both races: you say that was a mistake?—l fancy it was done intentionally, but it was an error. 186. It should have been the same as the previous grant?— Yes, and so should be the 244 acres. 187. You say, of the original grant of 4,244 acres, an area of 244 acres was a gift by the Maoris and should have been for the benefit of the Maori race only?— Yes. 188. Then we have the other grant of 1,745 acres?— Yes, that was a Maori grant. I might say further, in reference to the assistance I was to get from the Government, that Sir George Grey being removed to the Cape, the Ministry promised to fulfil Sir George Grey's promise, and I think a second Ministry did so too. But, speaking from memory, in 1871 a new Ministry was formed who declared they would not give anything, and then I thought it was time for me to begin. The Native Minister being an old friend of mine, he happened to spend an evening with us. In the morning he was walking round and he saw that a beginning was being made to put the foundation down of the main building. He came in to breakfast, and he said, " I see you are preparing to build." I said, " Yes, it is about time, is it not?" He asked me, " Are you aware the Government have declared they will not give you anj' help." " Yes," I said, "I am perfectly well aware; after coming here under the promise of the Governor of the colony that he would provide funds, two Ministries, I think, having promised to carry out his engagements, now I have heard that the new Ministry, of which you are Native Minister, have declared they will not give anything I feel it is time for me to make a beginning." He said, "Do you expect to carry it out?" I said, " I am not in the habit of beginning anything without seeing some hopes of success, and I think I shall succeed." I want to say that we erected these buildings without any assistance whatever from the Government. 189. These old deeds you are talking about should be amongst the records in the possession of the colony? —They should be; but I am rather afraid they were deposited on the White Rocks in the " White Swan " when that vessel was wrecked when taking down the Government records from Auckland to Wellington. 190. What was your position when you first went on the property?—l was between two or three stools, I think, and neither one nor the other helped me. 191. And you did the best you could for the school?— Yes. 192. And they left you in that position?— Yes, for many years. . 193. Did you farm the place? —I tried to farm part of it, and I tried to keep school in raupo houses. We kept various numbers which are stated in the reports, until I found it necessary for me, most reluctantly, to give it up.