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Geobge Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, examined. (No. 13.) The Chairman : I will ask Mr. Hogben and Mr. Fox to give the Committee a general explanation of the documents that have been laid before us. Witness : The Committee asked for certain details in regard to the effect of the scheme. The first item is " the expected contributions derived under clause 4 from persons employed at he commencement of the Act." The Chairman : It might be as well to read to members what we asked for. This is what we asked for : "I have the honour respectively to inform you that the following resolutions were this day agreed to by the Education Committee : viz., That the Chairman be directed to make application to the Hon. the Mm ster of Education for the following information : The expected contributions derived under clause 4 from persons employed at the commencement of Act; (clause 5) new entrants ; (clause 6) other persons employed after commencement of Act. Tables showing the capital and total annual charges requisite for the benefits under the various headings. (Clause 12) Males retiring at pensionage. Females retiring at pension-age. (Clause 13) Contributors retiring medically unfit not exceeding fifteen years). Original members medically unfit (under the proviso). Contributors medically unfit (service fifteen years). (Clause 14) Contributors retiring. (Clause 15) Contributors not leaving widows. (Clause 16) Contributors leaving widows. The information to be under various headings. (2.) That the Chairman be requested to make application to the Hon. the Minister of Edtication for the reports furnished by the Government Actuary in reference to the Teachers' Superannuation Bill and the teachers' proposals in connection therewith. (3.) That the Chairman be requested to procure a table showing the probable progress of the capital accumulations of the fund until it reaches its maximum, assuming a natural rate of increase in the membership in the future. The Education Committee will feel much indebted if you will be so good as to issue the instructions necessary to secure that the information sought shall be supplied to them." That was the letter I wrote to the Premier in accordance with the resolutions passed, and it is on that that the tables have been given. Mr. Hogben: I may say that the Minister asked me to give all this information, as far as I could. The first item is " the expected contributions derived under clause 4 from persons employed at the commencement of the Act." Mr. Fox will give that based on the number of probable contributors that were returned in answer to questions in 1903. In 1903 cards were sent out to all the people in the colony that would come under the scheme, and that number consisted of 1,388 women and 1,251 men. 24. Mr. J. Allen.] Where is that in the tables ? —lt is not in the tables at all. It would be almost misleading to put it in the tables unless a long explanation were given, because the figures have to be corrected. I spoke to Mr. Fox on the point, and we thought it better to give the information in evidence. 1,251 men and 1,388 women were the number who answered the inquiry, who gave sufficient details to work upon, and who expressed their willingness to come under the scheme without knowing, I may say, what the scheme was going to be. All of the teachers did not answer. And, in addition, the number of teachers has increased since then. On the other hand the Native-school teachers, who are Civil servants, would have been included in the former Bill, and the officers of the Department also ; but they are not included in the present Bill. No Civil servants are included in it; managers and teachers of industrial schools or of the deaf-mute institutes are not included in the terms of the Bill. 25. Mr. Hardy.] How about the Board officials ?—They are not Civil servants, and are included ; that is, if they are permanently employed. 26. Mr. Fisher.] How about technical-school teachers ?—They would not all be included now. I am of opinion that they should be included, and that the definition of " education service " should be extended so as to say " managers of technical schools " as well as " governing bodies of secondary schools." 27. Mr. Buddo.] Managers of the staff ?—No; service under the managers. You see the Education Boards are controlling authorities in some cases, and I would put in also " managers of associated classes." Technical-school teachers would come in now where they are under the Boards or under the governing bodies of secondary schools, but they would not come in where they are under managers, because the managers are a separate corporate body. You would have to bring them in under the definition. I was going to suggest that at a later date. There have therefore to be deducted from the totals I gave you —1,251 men and 1,388 women —the Native-school teachers and other Civil servants who are engaged in the Education service ; but there has to be added the increase in the teachers that has taken place since 1902, because the 1903 returns are really 1902 returns—they give the facts for 1902. 28. Mr. Sidey.] Did not these people understand it was the 1902 scheme they were going to come under when the request was made to them ?—There was no scheme before them when they had the cards. It was prior to the drawing-up of the Bill. The information was obtained before the Bill was circulated. We wanted to get it as a basis to frame the Bill upon. Schemes of their own had been circulated, but no Bill was in the hands of the teachers when they gave that information. 29. The Bill was introduced in 1902 ?—Yes, that is true. If I may be allowed to do so, I will correct that statement; but my impression is that when the cards were sent out a Bill was not circulated. The present number of teachers and of officers who would come in is something like 3,150. I estimate it at 1,700 women and 1,450 men. I have not included all the teachers, because, as the Committee is well aware, there are in the colony a certain number of household schools, and in these cases the appointments are only temporary, so these teachers are not " permanently employed." They are uncertificated teachers. No uncertificated teacher is in the sense of the Act permanently employed. A Board has power to employ an uncertificated teacher temporarily if it cannot get a suitable certificated teacher, but teachers are not permanently employed unless they are certificated. Eliminat ng those that should be so eliminated, I make the number nearly 1,700 women and 1,450 men at the present time, if all those who could come in did so. Mr Fox will tell you that his report is not based on that