1.—9.

R. HOLDSWORTH.]

97

Mr. Cusack : 1 might also say that 1 have been in communication with the Licensed Victuallers Association of Wellington, and to a certain extent they agree with us on the question ; but there are a number of smaller places —places outside the association —that will sell in spite of what the association would like to do. 118. Is the trade largest in the larger and more fashionable hotels, or the smaller beer-shop places ? —It is carried on right through. If we could get the real facts we should find that about one-third of the trade was done by the hotels. 119. (To Mr. Holdsworth).] With regard to the information which you have occasionally given to the Labour Department, you are aware, I suppose, that the Department publish a list of prosecutions every year ? —Yes. 120. Have you ever looked at that to see whether the Department has prosecuted the parties with regard to whom you have given the information ?—The particular party I spoke of has not been prosecuted during three years. There is one other thing I would like to say, and that is that the Act should be subject to awards of the Arbitration Court and industrial agreements. 121. Mr. Tanner.] The hours which have been mentioned between Mr. Davey and Mr. Cusack are practically the hours which were agreed upon in an industrial agreement by your people ?—Yes ; but an industrial agreement does not stand good in the Courts. 122. You not have the Act override the agreement ?—No. We want an industrial agreement to stand, the same as an arbitration award —that is, the Act not to affect it at all. 123. Mr. Barber (to Mr. Cusack).] Am I to understand that you ask that the hotels be prohibited from selling cigars, cigarettes, and tobacco at any time ?—Yes ; because the Act states distinctly that any place that is open for the sale of articles other than those it is licensed for should come under the Act. 124. I understand that the Licensed Victuallers' Association have so far only asked licensed houses to refrain from selling tobacco, cigars, &c, after 6 o'clock ?—No ; on the half-holiday only, I believe. We maintain that if they sell them at any time of the day they come under the Act. 125. So that if they want to keep open up to 10 o'clock they should really not have them in the place ? —That is so. Ido not think there is any other trade in the colony that is cut into so much by other trades as that of a tobacconist. Mr. Holdsworth : I might state that the Auckland hotels agreed amongst themselves not to keep cigars and tobacco, but in February, when I was up there, they were still doing a big business in them. Therefore their word was worth nothing. 126. The Chairman (to Mr. Cusack).] You have a copy of the Act by you. I would call your attention to section 2of clause 21. Your real complaint, I presume, is that the first section you think overrides the second ?—Undoubtedly. That is our reading of it, whether correct or not. 127. And your real request is that it should be amended so that ?—lt should state distinctly that each trade has the right to fix its own closing hour. 128. Independently of what the others do ? —Yes. And if that is stated clearly there should be no exemptions whatever —whether a man employs hands or whether he carries on by himself. We maintain that the man who pays a high rent and employs five or six hands is the man who should get the more consideration of the two, because such a man is undoubtedly the backbone of the' country. 129. (To Mr. Holdsworth.) Do you not think that if the words you speak of were placed in the Act there would be a possibility —I do not say a probability —of the employer and employee making an agreement for the purpose of evading the Act ?—No ; I do not think so. 130. Do you think there would be a possibility of such a thing ?—There would be a possibility, but I do not think they would do it. 131. lam not speaking of your own trade, mind, but any trade ?—I think that ours is about the only trade that has not got an arbitration award. We have an industrial agreement. 132. Is it not possible to get that agreement made into an award by mutual consent ? —I do not know. It would mean a lot of trouble.

Tuesday, 18th July, 1905. A deputation representing bank-clerks of New Zealand in attendance. The Chairman : I understand, gentlemen, that you wish to give evidence on behalf of the bankclerks of New Zealand with regard to the Shops and Offices Bill. We already have before us a very largely signed petition, and I think we know pretty well what you ask for. I suppose you have your speakers selected. We are prepared to hear everything that you have to say, but our is limited, and I would ask you not to repeat one another more than is strictly necessary. William Dennett Home examined. (No. 99.) 133. From what part of the colony do you come ?—I am in the Bank of New Zealand, Wellington. 134. And you represent ? —We five represent the rank and file of the bank-clerks in New Zealand. 135. Can you tell me about how many bank-clerks there are in New Zealand ?—Well, we have 732 signatures of bank-clerks under the rank of assistant accountant. There would be, I suppose, from two to three hundred above that rank. 136. Who have not signed ? —They have not signed. 137. Mr. Aitken.] It is all those below that have signed ?—Below the rank of assistant accountant. 138. The Chairman.] How were you appointed to come here this morning ? —We just selected representatives amongst ourselves. 13—1. 9.