1.—9.

18

[W. H. LAVELLE.

226. They say they could not carry on their business in the limited time permitted ?—I think they could. 227. Has that question been considered, the effect upon the shopkeepers of this proposal ? —Yes, it has been considered in this way, that our association thinks that the shopkeepers would not lose if they adopted early closing and uniformity in the hours of closing. If all the shops closed at a certain hour one would not reap any advantage. People spend a certain amount of money, and would spend it in a shorter time. It is when the exemptions come in that there is trouble. If you give one an exemption others want it. If you could fix upon one hour for closing and enforced it, I think the shopkeepers would be the better for it. I will give you an illustration :In taking round that list in a certain street I came across three bootmakers. I asked one of them working at his last, " Will you sign this list ? " He said " No, not unless the other two up the street do so." I went to the next man and he said he would not unless the other two did. Ultimately, I managed to get one of them to sign it, and then went to the other two and they signed it, and now they are firm friends. This shows that it is uniformity that is wanted. 228. Did the employees complain that the hours they worked prior to the passing of the Act were too long ? —I do not know. I have only been connected with the association for a few months. 229. Are you aware that the assistants objected prior to the Act being brought into force ?—Yes. After the passing of the Act several of our members came to me and told me they were being kept over time, more than fifty-two hours a week, and I told them what to do. Two of them were paid for their overtime under compulsion by the Labour Department, and immediately their employers reduced their wages. Two got a cheque for about £2 145., but they said "It does not come to anything; our wages are lowered," and they had been working all that time for nothing. 230. Mr. Fisher.] In connection with this petition : What was the method by which you got it signed ? Did you go from shop to shop right through the streets ?—Well, I had other things to do at the time. I started in Willis Street near to my office, and went along that street. Perhaps one or two of the shopkeepers would be out. It would only be the principal who signed—never a subordinate. 231. Did you go to every shop in the street ?—I missed the restaurants, fish-shops, and tea-rooms. I did not go to a single Chinaman's shop. I missed those shops mentioned on the cover of the list produced. 232 We cannot value a petition unless we know how the signatures" to it are obtained ? How many shops are there in Willis Street, three hundred ?—Oh no. 233. Roughly, how many ? —There are very few beyond where Manners Street intersects it. It was a question of time with me, and in the middle of it I sprained my ankle and limped about for three or four weeks. If I had been in proper fettle I should have got more signatures. 234. That impairs the value of the petition very much. Willis Street is packed with shops. There are only twenty-six names down for Willis Street, and there is an enormous stretch of shops on Lambton Quay for which you have thirty-six names. What do you think, generally speaking, is the opinion of those people you did not call on ? The point is this : there must be a great number of shops you called on and got refusals, and a great many shops you did not call on ?—There were a great many shops I did not call on, but four out of five I called on signed that list. 235. Then you must have called on very few shops ?—Yes, perhaps so. 236. Then this petition is not representative in any way of the shopkeepers of Wellington ? —Yes, on the contrary, it is. 237. We were told to-day there were 907 shops in Wellington, and this represents only 175 ? —I did not go to the Chinamen's, nor to the restaurants, hairdressers, tobacconists, and other places mentioned, because they claimed some kind of exemption. 238. As a matter of fact, this petition does not represent the opinion of the shopkeepers of Wellington ?—lt represents the opinions of those I called upon. I have just told you that four out of five of those I asked to sign signed it. 239. That shows that you were very discriminating as to those you called on ?—Oh, no. Look at the list and you will see. 240. You missed people like Mr. Hannah and Mr. Lindsay ?—I called on Mr. Lindsay. 241. And he would not sign it ? —No. There are not many shops left when you take those out which I have named. When the Act was enforced I immediately stopped getting signatures. 242. When you started that petition you considered it probable that you would treble that number ? —No. The Act is enforced now. I was surprised at meeting with such a large number of restaurants. 243. Are you engaged in any business at present—occupied in any way ?—I am secretary to the Shop-assistants' Association. 244. (To Mr. Lavelle.) Are you engaged in any business I —l was accountant at Messrs. Kirkcaldie and Stains, and I was organizer of the association now formed, with Mr. Izard, the president. 245. We were told by one employer that he had lost £25 per month, by another that there was a difference of £80 in his takings, and if another told us that his cash sales had fallen off 25 per cent, from your point of view would he be right ? —We cannot verify such statements, we must take them for granted. I could not say Yes or No. 246. Can you say whether sales have dropped as a result of this early closing or not ?—lt would not be fair for me to do so. It would not be unbiassed. Trade is considered to be bad just now in Wellington. I know that as an accountant. 247. Another point was raised this morning by some of the witnesses who are property-owners : They say that through this Act the letting-value of their properties has been depreciated ?—I cannot say as to that. lam not a property-owner. 248. Do you not think it is the duty of the members of your association to consider the interests of their employers ?—Decidedly I do. I have always impressed that on the committee.