I.—3b.

4

[P. EKETONE.

hold of any money to enable us to work the lands and raise money on the lands. Now, in regard to the pakeha settlers, they may be absolutely without any money at all, but they are placed on the Crown lands, and the Crown immediately provides them with the cash to work the thing to a success. Now, the Maoris have the land to begin with, but what they lack is what they are asking for—they ask the Government to provide means and open up channels to them to enable them to obtain money to work their lands, on the security of their lands. lam not a bit afraid of that—l should like that to be done, because it would force upon the Maori mind the realisation of the fact that he is a responsible being, and that should be an incentive to work. Then, after the individual wants of the Maoris have been provided for in the way I have suggested, if any balance of land is found to be remaining, it would be quite right to throw open this land to European settlement; and I believe this, that it would be better to place the management and arrangement of these lands in the hands of the Council, as they would be more speedily thrown open for settlement than if each individual owner had taken it upon himself to deal with his own lands. I would further say, that in the case of Maori lands where Maoris themselves cannot work them, it would be desirable to remove restrictions from these lands. All that would be necessary would be to give such powers to the Council or Board as would enable thejn to administer these lands to the best advantage. But in asking for these extended powers to be given to the Council we do not wish to eliminate the Maori voices from the control of affairs in the Council, but let the Government appoint capable persons to administer and take control of these Councils —people in whom confidence can be placed, and people who have a practical knowledge of how the lands should be administered. Now, the third ground in the petition is the trusteeship of the Council. Now, we look upon that as a very important power. What we say is this, that when the lands are handed over to the Council as trustee for the Maori owners it must be distinctly understood that the Council is merely a trustee, and not the owner —that we still continue to be the owners; and we further say that a limit of time should be fixed within which the lands must be handed back by the Council to the Maori owners. We have in our petition suggested forty-two years as the limit, and our reason for fixing that as the limit is this, that after forty-two years have gone by the younger generation of Maoris will have passed through the schools and will have acquired a wider knowledge of things than we at present possess, and we want to make certain that these descendants of ours will, after the terms of leases and so on have expired, have land of their own. What we wish also is this: when these young people have grown up we want them to be in this position, that they can go to the Council and say this: "We have arrived at the age of discretion, and we know how to control and administer our lands just as well as the Europeans do, and why should we not have our lands back? " 4. Mr. Carroll .] When you referred to a fixed term, you meant in regard to leasing?— Yes. Now, in regard to the fourth ground contained in the petition, I do not think it is necessary to elaborate that to any great extent. I think that every member of the Committee will see that that Act should be repealed. The reason is this, that under " The Maori Real Estate Management Act, 1888," it is impossible at the present time to lease land the property of minors for a longer period than twenty-one years. 1 can speak from experience, because I have been a member of this Ngatimaniapoto Tuwharetoa Council for three years, and I know that Europeans will not take up leases when they can only get a twenty-one-years term. If the term were longer they would take them up. In regard to the fifth clause of the petition, we ask that the colony should bear the expense of administration of the Council. Now, I would simply like to say this, that we are satisfied that it is only right and proper that the colony should bear the expense of administration of the Council for this reason, that in throwing open Maori lands for selection by Europeans it will be a benefit not merely to the Maori owners of the land, but also to the colony as a whole. Of course, the benefits that will result to the colony under that are these: that money will accrue to pay rates and taxes, and so on, and if that is done it will enable the noxious weeds to be kept under control, and you know that thousands of pounds per annum are expended in this direction ; but if the lands were once settled upon by Europeans, the Maoris and Europeans would pay all these things. If the Maoris themselves were working the land they would contribute their quota towards keeping the noxious weeds under control the same as other people now contribute. Of course, I might elaborate this question to a great extent, but there is no occasion to do that, because you know the benefits which would result would be ver} , much greater and more farreaching than I have described. Of course, in clause 5 of the petition we ask that the Council should not withhold or retain more than 5 per cent, of the money accruing to it from the lands under its administration, and I think that in asking that we are not asking anything out of the way, and that we are not making a request that is not justified, because I am sure that once it gets into working-order it will not cost anything like 5 per cent. We have been administering the townships of Te Kuiti, Otorohauga, and Taumarunui during the past three years, and we find that the cost of administration does not come to 5 per cent. Of course, in saying this I am not taking into consideration moneys that are expended in surveying and roading the lands—that is a different matter. lam merely now speaking of the cost of administration by the Council. 5. When you say the State should bear the cost of administration do you not propose that the land should bear a portion, and, if so, what portion?— What we say is"this: the Native Land Court is financed by the colony, and we say that the Council also should be financed by the colony, tinder the law as it now stands the Maori lands have got to pay all costs of administration, no matter what they may amount to. I think, perhaps, I forgot to say this in speaking about papakaingas, that it should be arranged that, as they are for the personal support of Natives, these papakaingas should therefore be exempt from all rates and taxes. lam not now speaking of lands from which we hope to derive a revenue. 6. Mr. Hone Heke.] Can you explain why they should be exempt from rates and taxes?— Well, for this reason, that we ask that these papakaingas should be absolutely restricted; they should not be able to be leased or sold or mortgaged, or dealt with in any way like that.