I.—lo.

48

[m. w. woodpield.

not say that. I said we could not buy in 200 lb. sacks from the association, which is quite a different thing. 177. Will you commit yourself to saying that such an order, amounting to so large a sum, could be entirely for small bags? —It might be. I could not tell without looking up my papers. Mr. Calder, the head of the department, had a free"hand to buy as much as he liked. 178. Did you experience any difficulty at that time in getting flour from any of the mills that were not associated ? —Only a difficulty in this way : that the cost would be very much more, and it is all a waste of time, which is humbugging an association. 179. I want to know whether any of the outside mills refused you flour ?—None that did not belong to the association. 180. You are familiar, of course, with the constitution of the Bakers' Union ? —Partly. I only knew they were established. Do you mean the employees' union ? 181. The Master Bakers' Union?—No, lam not familiar with it. We have never interested ourselves in that at all, because we told them at the start that we were going to be free. 182. Do you know that their policy is not to deal with flour-mills, and that they prohibit their members from dealing with flour-mills that supply undercutting bakers ? Do you know that?—l believe that to be correct. 183. Also that the members of the Bakers' Union are quite the largest customers the association have in Christchurch?—l do not know that. 184. You would take them to be the largest customers? —I would take them to be good customers. lam not prepared to say the largest. 185. If the Master Bakers' Union did withdraw their custom as a body, it would be a very disastrous thing for the association, would it not ?—That is according to the rule or way they are working together. Ido not see why it should be. 186. I will put it in a different way : your bakery was a small affair at that time—you were just beginning? —Yes ; we started with one oven. 187. This was the position of the association : it had to elect between supplying you and losing the whole trade, perhaps, of the Master Bakers' Association ?—I do not know. I certainly do not see why it should be so. 188. But you know it was the position ? —I know now. 189. You see that it was quite likely to be the position, can you not? —I do not see why it should be the position. 190. There is a rule to that effect? —The rule reads : " 29. No member shall do any business with any miller who does not belong to the union and also to the New Zealand Flour-millers' Co-operative Association (Limited) ; and a purchase of flour by a member of the union from any other person or firm shall be deemed a breach of the rules, and he shall be dealt with in a similar manner as if he had sold bread at less than agreed prices." That seems to be a kind of conspiracy between the two, in a form. 191. That is the position, is it not: that it is the Bakers' Union which makes this condition, and says to its members and to the association that if you supply non-unionists with flour we will not deal with you ? —lf the association bind themselves under the Master Baker's Union's rules, it certainly works out that way. 192. Are you aware that this rule has been amended by the omission of all reference to the Flour-millers' Association ?—No. 193. I have a record of the total amount of flour supplied to your association by the Flourmillers' Association, and it shows a continuous course of transactions? —No. 194. Is there a break of any month ?—No ; but there are times when it could have been nearly double what it is. If we had been getting all our flour from your association there would have been times when our orders would have been nearly double. 195. It is admitted at once that the association declined to sell you flour at one period, but I am pointing out to you that your supplies from the association have never been entirely cut off?— As far as the bakery was concerned, I think we are right in saying that they were entirely cut off. 196. At what period?—At the time this correspondence took place. 197. How long would that continue ? —lt would be about October, but how long I cannot say. It would be for several weeks. 198. But for that period of several weeks you have experienced no trouble whatever in getting your flour from the association? —This is the position: When we first began getting flour we wanted to buy big lines for the purposes of saving the cash discount, but we could not buy except in small quantities. We were not allowed to get the same quantities even as some of the small bakers. We wanted to buy 25 tons, and we could not get a reply to our order. 199. Was your order accepted ?—No. 200. I ask you whether, with the exception of that period of a few weeks, you had experienced any difficulty in getting your usual supplies from the association ? Have they ever refused you flour for your usual quantity of supply except during that period ? —Not for the usual supply. 201. That means that the association have occasionally refused you orders for large lines?— That is right. 202. Well, I suggest to you that that was when there was a rising market and you wanted to protect yourselves ? —I do not think it was always then. At one time, if I remember aright—Mr. Jameson will remember better than I can —there was a special discount for such-and-such a quantity for cash ; 1 think it was lj. It was in 1902, and I think we wanted to take advantage of that. 203. That special discount was for 300 tons taken during the year ?—Yes. 204. You make no charge at all against the association of charging an undue profit on the manufacture of flour from wheat ?—I do not know sufficient about the manufacture of flour. I would not like to express an opinion on a matter of that sort. 205. lam asking you whether you make the charge or not; you can very easily say you do not ? —I do not make any charge.