I.—lc.

12

[GENERAL BABINGTON.

95. Hon. Mr. Hall-Jones.] Would not that be minuted on the papers—if it had gone to the Under-Secretary?—Yes, or on a separate sheet. It would depend upon whether there was room on that sheet or not. 96. Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon.] Is there anything on that authority to show that it has ever been sent out of your office ?—No; but, as I say, I do not write at the bottom of the paper or across it, and a minute may have gone on a separate piece of paper, or it may not. I cannot say without .reference to the office file. 97. Hon. Mr. Hall-Jones.] It would not go without a minute ? —No ; but, as I say, the minute may have been on a separate sheet of paper. 98. But there is no evidence on the document, as we have it here, to show that it has ever been sent out of your office ?—No. 99. Bt. Hon. B. J. Seddon.] It came from your office when I asked for the authority ?—Yes. 100. Mr. Barber.] I understood you to say, General, that Major Smith signs vouchers when you are absent ?—Not vouchers. I sign no vouchers. What I said was that he would sign for me if we were forwarding anything to the Under-Secretary or to the Minister for Defence. 101. He is really the proper officer to certify to a voucher for work done in the Department ? —Yes. 102. If you think £4 a week was sufficient remuneration for doing this work, why was a larger sum paid to Captain Clark for the first work that he did ?—That was under Imperial sanction. The Imperial people accept that. 103. But this was the same class of work that he was carrying out ?—No. The class of work that he was paid for at a lieutenant's rate, or whatever it was, was the making-out of the discharges of the men belonging to the contingent that he was in. An officer from each contingent as it came back was employed to make out the discharges, and these officers were paid by the Imperial authorities at their rate of pay in South Africa. When the work in connection with the Ninth and Seventh Contingents was finished Captain Clark was put on the distribution of 2,000 clasps, which came out en masse, and then on the preparation of the King's Medal rolls. The Imperial authorities may or may not have an understanding with the colonial people about paying full rates for such work. Apparently they have not, and that is where this question begins, if I may say so. There is no question raised as to the pay up to the time Captain Clark finished the Seventh Contingent work ; it is from then onwards. 104. Captain McGee ought really to have gone on with this work?--No. There was an idea of bringing Captain McGee from Canterbury. It was thought that he was the officer whom we should bring up; but, as a matter of fact, he never came up. 105. Are you aware that Major Smith put in a voucher certifying to the full claim of Captain Clark ? There is a voucher that you have not seen ?—I presume that he would have done so. 106. Are you aware that Major Smith certified to Captain Clark's claim, and certified that the work had been performed ?—I am aware that he would. I have not actually seen the paper, but I am aware that he would sign to say the work had been performed. 107. You think that Major Smith certified? —He certified that the work was done. 108. I have here the rolls that Captain Clark made up. Do you know how many names there are on this ? Captain Clark : About 6,700 names. General Babington : The trouble with regard to the King's Medal roll beyond the other one is this : that no man serving in only one contingent could possibly get the King's Medal. He must have been transferred to, at any rate, one other contingent. Some of them were transferred to two or three contingents. That information had to be got. If a man had served in only one contingent he could not have put in the requisite time to qualify for the King's Medal. 109. Mr. Hardy.] What means had Captain Clark for tracing the men's service : what difficulties had he to encounter?—He had to get the regimental records. 110. Had he much difficulty ? —He had very great difficulty in finding out about these men. A great many men applied for the King's Medal, many of whom did not understand the conditions. We get applications from men up to the present time who are by no means entitled to the King's Medal. 111. The records, I presume, were to be found in the Defence Department?—No; we could not get all the information we wanted, because many of these regimental records were not as well kept as they might have been. 112. Hon. Mr. Hall-Jones.] Had Captain Clark any assistance in doing this work ?—Colonel Chaytor assisted him in his spare time. 113. Mr. Barber.] The result of that has been that 6,700-odd searches have had to be made? —We refused a number of applications that were made. 114. The 6,700 are what have been certified to; in addition to those a number of others have been refused ?—Yes; I may say that I got an application only yesterday. 115. You say that the instructions are that vouchers should be sent in monthly, and you understand that a fine of £1 is inflicted if this is not done. A new man coming back with one of the contingents may not be aware that it is necessary to send the vouchers in monthly. Does it not show that there is a very loose system in the control of the Defence Department if the vouchers are not sent in ? Somebody in authority should see that the employees are instructed to send their vouchers in monthly if that is the rule?— Well, it is talking about a Department which is not my own. 116. I understand that there is a separation of the two Departments ; but how can the UnderSecretary know that there is an extra individual employed in the Department unless he is informed? —The authority for that person's employment ought to go down to him. 117. But there was no authority in this case?—No, excepting the Ministerial authority.