L—ll.

and "illusory," which are used in this petition, suggest representations by the Government, and really raise points which have been emphasized in London. It is impossible for the Government to pretend that they do not understand what is meant by these words " so-called " and " illusory " in this petition; and, if I were confined to a mere answer to the allegations in the petitions, the Government would not have the opportunity which the petitions afford them of answering the attack which has been made upon them in London and repeated here. Dr. Findlay : I should like to say that the word " illusory " was certainly not used as meaning any misrepresentation on the part of the Government of the colony. It was used by us as meaning that the debenture-holders had been led into a mistake in determining their legal rights. I can give the Committee an assurance that that is what was meant by the word, and I can say so with certainty, because the petition was drawn up by us in this colony and approved of by the Supreme Court. There was no intention to cast any reflection on the good faith of the colony. The Chairman : I think, seeing that the words " so-called " and " illusory " have been used, however used, by whomsoever used, and at what time used, Mr. Bell is entitled to cover all the ground in any allegations, whether made in this colony or elsewhere, in putting the case of the Government in answer to the petitions. Dr. Findlay: I quite recognise Mr. Bell's right to touch on any phrases used by Mr. Coates himself, but Ido not think he should refer to statements for which we are not responsible. Mr. Bell may accept my assurance that the use of the words " so-called " and " illusory "was not intended to signify anything except that the debenture-holders were misled as to their position, but not as anything against the Government. I think lam entitled to take that position. Mr. Bell: I think Dr. Findlay will find he has no cause for complaint if he will hear me, as I desire to be heard on behalf of the Government of this colony in reply to the attacks which have been made upon them at Home, and which are in effect repeated in this petition —without the sting, which Dr. Findlay says is not intended. The Chairman : I think the Committee is entitled to hear from Mr. Bell anything he has to say on behalf of the colony on broad and general grounds, and not to be confined to the allegations in the petitions alone. Mr. 0. H. Mills : I think such should be the case ; but Mr. Dalston wants to lay before the Committee his sequence of facts, and also to back up the statements which have been made in his petition, and he is afraid that if Mr. Bell makes his statement he will be shut out. The Chairman : I think I may say on behalf of the Committee that it will exclude nothing that has to be said in relation to the petitions ; but I think I am not wrong in saying that we met here this morning to hear Mr. Bell. Mr. Dalston : All I want to say is that I think I should have a right to speak in regard to my petition, seeing that I am not represented by counsel. The Chairman : You will not be excluded. Mr. Bell: If he speaks after me he will reply to me, and I should have an opportunity of answering him. Mr. J. Allen: I understood that Mr. Dalston put in all his evidence the other day. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon : I hope the usual course will be pursued, and then if Mr. Dalston opens up new matter as against the Government we shall hear Mr. Bell in reply. Mr. J. Allen : Why not hear Mr. Dalston now? Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon: We have heard Dr. Findlay on behalf of the petitioners, and it was clearly understood that we were to hear Mr. Bell in reply, and we are here this morning to hear Mr. Bell. Mr. W. Fraser : You said that if Mr. Dalston opened up new matter then Mr. Bell should have a right to reply. Surely the same may be said with regard to Mr. Bell: that if he opens up fresh matter Mr. Dalston should have aright'to reply to him. In fact, each side should understand that if fresh matter is introduced by one side the other side will have a right to reply. Mr. J. Allen : I understood Mr. Bell was to reply on behalf of the colony. Ido not see how he can do that without hearing Mr. Dalston. Mr. Bell: lam entirely in the hands of the Committee. Ido not anticipate Mr. Dalston can say anything which I cannot meet in advance. The Chairman : I do not care to say so, for, naturally and properly, one would not like to say one single word which might appear to bear against the petitions ; but I do not see how anything Mr. Dalston can say will materially affect the ultimate result. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon : To put the matter clearly, I will move that Mr. Dalston be heard, and then Mr. Bell can reply. We will take it as though the petitioners were plaintiffs and the Government defendants, and Mr. Bell will reply on their behalf. Mr. Fraser : Then Mr. Dalston will reply to Mr. Bell. Bight Hon. B. J. Seddon : Certainly not. Mr. W. Fraser : We are here to consider this matter as one of equity. I want to see fair-play, and, if Dr. Findlay is to be entitled to reply to Mr. Bell, why should not Mr. Dalston ? The Chairman: As you mention fair-play, I may say that every party to these petitions shall have a right to plead his cause, and no one shall be able to complain that he has not had fair-play. Mr. Dalston, the Committee agrees to hear you. What have you to say ? Mr Dalston : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of this Committee,—l am here as General Manager of and Petitioner on behalf of the shareholders of the New Zealand Midland Eailway Company, and, with your permission, I will read a copy of a resolution which I have lately received from the secretary of the company, and which was passed in London on the 14th June last: —

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