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403. It had burnt out when you got to the place?— Yes. 404. Did you go on the ground?— Yes, but I could not get through the swamp. 405. You found there had been a fire in the swamp?— Yes. 406. And the swamp was too soft to go through ? —Yes. 407. Where did you go then?— Back to my work. 408. Did you not go on the hills ?—No. 409. Can you say whether there were any Maoris about ?—Yes, there were plenty of Maoris. 410. In the month of December?— Yes, there were three camps. 411. Close by where the fire occurred ? —There were two camps within a couple of chains, and another nearer Whangamarino. 412. Where were the two camps?— Near where the fire was supposed to have originated. 413. Were they there at the time of the fire ? —They were there on the following morning, because I was speaking to them. 414. Had you seen their camp there before the fire?— Yes. 415. What were they ?—Gum-diggers. 416. Have you known the Maori gum-diggers to set fire to places along the line ?—I have known the men to be there, and a fire would start just after the train had passed by. They arrange it so that the fire will take place at that time. 417. Your suggestion is that the Maoris started the fire shortly afterwards in order to throw suspicion on the train?— Yes. I saw it happen in one case. It was so barefaced that it must have been them, because the fire started on the side of the railway from which the wind was blowing. It started on the windward side of the line instead of the leeward side. 418. When was that ?—About the same time. 419. Was that the fire that occurred in the Government plantation?— Yes. It travelled towards the south road, and came back into our plantation. 420. You say the Maoris originated it ? —Yes, they must have. 421. Have you known fires take place along the railway-line by reason of passengers throwing out lighted matches ? —Yes. 422. Have you seen the actual occurrence? —I have. 423. Along your section?— Along this section and on the section lam on now. I picked up the cigar and showed it to the man who was with me. 424. It originated a fire ? —Yes, and I put it out immediately. 425. During your time on the section did you do what you could to prevent fires spreading or starting?— Yes, everything that we could possibly do. 426. You went up and down the line to use what care you could to prevent fires ?—Yes. 427. Will you describe the regulations for that purpose?—lt is our duty to get rubbish that accumulates on the line and burn it in a safe place. 428. Mr. Poynton.] Do you adhere to those regulations ? —Yes. 429. Mr. Cooper.] And you did then ?—Yes. 430. But no precautions were taken by the owners of this plantation to protect it ?—No. 431. Shortly after this serious fire did the Maoris clear out? —They cleared out the day after the fire was supposed to have occurred. They cleared out on the day I spoke to them. 432. They have not come back again ? —No, not that I know of. 433. Mr. Oliphant.] You know the 52-mile post on the line ?—Yes. 434. And the swamp on the east side ?—Yes. 435. You saw the remains of the fire in that swamp?— Yes. 436. Is it likely the Maoris would burn that swamp with the view of digging gum out of it ?—Yes. They did burn the whole of the swamp for the purpose of digging gum as they went along. They burnt both sides. They have repeatedly set fire to the swamp. 437. Witnesses have told us the swamp is too damp to work in?— Well, I can satisfy you that the camp was full of Maoris. That is their principal place for getting gum —at the 52-mile post. 438. When they dig in these swamps they make deep holes, do they not ?—Not unless they strike gum, and then they could get it out with spears that they use. They hook it up. 439. But they would dig round the edges of the swamp ?—They usually get out as far as they can. 440. At the 52-mile post are there any traces of gum-digging ?—I do not think I could find traces now. 441. The gum-diggers' spades will leave a monument for twenty years, will they not?— Yes; but they do not dig with the spade. 442. There is a ridge where the fire started, and there is no sign of digging on it. Have you seen the gum-diggers on the east side ?—Yes. 443. At the 52-mile post ?—Yes. 444. Can you show me any marks made by the spades?—l might if I went into the swamp, but they never leave a big hole, and the soft stuff works into the small holes again and fills them up. 445. Do you think the Maoris fired the swamp on that day to get the gum out of the ground? —Yes, I believe that is so. 446. You do not think the train set fire to the swamp at all?—I do not think the train started that fire. , "' 447. Engine-driver Wildermoth reported the fire on the 15th to the gangers. Were you among them ?—I do not remember Wildermoth reporting anything about the fire. 448 iDo you remember putting out a fire on the 15th?—No. . . 449. He says he saw the gangers putting out a fire on the 15th. Were you among them ?—