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whether he was to be allowed to go up for examination notwithstanding the fact that his certificate had been suspended. 285. As a matter of fact, had not his certificate been cancelled ? —Yes. 286. The facts were these : this was a man who years ago had a master's certificate and had lost his steamer, and had his certificate cancelled, and who, in the ordinary course, should have obtained a mate's certificate before sitting for the master's examination, but he was allowed to sit without acquiring the mate's certificate ? —I think so, but I cannot speak definitely on that point. 287. I suppose the papers will be produced if necessary ? —Yes, at any time. 288. Mr. Travers suggests to me that in this case Captain Pope was holding a mate's certificate under the order of your predecessor, Mr. Fergus?—l think he was. The Commission recommended the issue of a mate's certificate when they cancelled his master's, and it was only a matter of applying for it. 289. Do you recollect, when you spoke to Captain Allman on the 9th November, that you asked him to furnish you with a confidential report ?—I am very clear on that point, After he had given that information, when he stated what actually occurs in his first statement with regard to the examination of Captain Jones, he asked me to keep it confidential. 290. Did you not suggest that it would be prudent not to let Mr. Glasgow know ?—No. He sent it on to me, and said he would rather it came to me than go to the department. 291. You did not suggest that it would be prudent not to show it to Mr. Glasgow?— No. 292. You did not say, " Send me a confidential report " ?—I put it very clearly to him that I could not treat the matter confidentially. I told him I should take the first opportunity of communicating what he told me to my colleagues, and I did so. 293. To summarise, you say that his statement in his answer that he saw you and had your permission to go on with this examination and to dispense with the mate's certificate, and examine this man for a master's certificate, is incorrect ?—Yes. 294. Can you explain how it was that Captain Jcnes knew when to go up for examination ? He must have been communicated with and told that at a certain time he could sit for examination ?—Who told him that ? 295. Do you know ? —Captain Jones can better tell you that. 296. Is there no record in the office, or letter to Captain Jones, telling him that he would be examined if he presented himself at any time and place ?—Not that I am aware of. 297. If there is such a record, would you have it produced ? —Certainly. 298. Mr. Gray.] I understand you to say that the first you knew of this matter was Jones coming to you personally ?—Yes, for his service certificate. 299. No written application had been put before you prior to that ? —No. 300. And you were not aware that the Premier had been looking into the matter? —No. 301. Or had been seen by Captain Jones or his friends as a deputation ?—No. 302. When were you made aware that Mr. Seddon had any connection with it?—l think it came out in what transpired since Mr. Hutcheson's speech. 303. You did not know until late in 1898 that Mr. Seddon had been dabbling in this matter?— I saw his minute in 1896. 304. He did not tell you that he had been looking into the matter up to his departure in 1897 ? —No. 305. You got that telegram from him in 1897 ?—Yes. 306. Did it not strike you then as peculiar that Mr. Seddon should ask you to look into Captain Jones's matter?— Not at all. If I wanted to bring anything to his recollection I should not hesitate to do so, and it is quite a common thing among Ministers. 307. Up to the receipt of the telegram the matter had been disposed of by you telling Captain Jones that your officers were against him ?—That is so. 308. And then after the receipt of the telegram you sent for Captain Allman?—Yes. 309. And finally brought him and Captain Jones together at your office ? —Yes. 310. You had been Minister of Marine from 1896 ?—Yes. 311. About a year?— Yes. 312. And had some little experience by that time ?—Yes. 313. Were you not aware that it was the opinion, not only of shipping men but some of your own officers, that this clause 26 did relate to qualifying for a certificate of competency? —Yes. 314. At all events, you know that this clause was supposed to qualify as far as service went in the direction of getting a certificate of competency ?—1 know of no other case except that of Captain Jones where it was suggested it did apply. 315. But you said just now that you believed some mariners and some officers did think it applied to such a case ?—I say that Captain Allman thought it applied. It was suggested to me that it applied. 316. At all events, it was suggested to you that that regulation might meet Jones's case ? —That is so. 317. And then you wrote this memorandum intending it as a reminder only ?—Yes. 318. Was it intended first as a reminder to yourself, or as a reminder to Captain Allman ? —lt was first intended for myself, to be kept on my desk for my private secretary, or Mr. Glasgow, or for Captain Allman as Chief Examiner and Nautical Adviser ; but, as he remarked that he would look into the regulations, I handed it to him as a reminder. 319. You changed your mind and converted it into a reminder from yourself to Captain Allman ? —There was a certain thing to be looked into, and I kept that on my desk until Mr. Glasgow should come along; but when I got a man alongside me who had got the information as well as Mr. Glasgow, I gave it to him. 320. Captain Allman was on the business of Captain Jones, and you handed it to him and he took it away ? —Yes.