59

H.—26.

241. Dr. Findlay."] Can you fix approximately the date when you first saw Captain Allman about Captain Jones's application for a service certificate ?—The first time I saw Captain Jones was at the end of 1896 or the beginning of 1897, and I probably would see Captain Allman in connection with the matter at the time. 242. The first interview, from the papers you have read and what he will say, was the one when Captain Jones claimed the service certificate, when it was discussed between you and Captain Allman ; and I understand that Captain Allman pointed out to you that if Captain Jones had claimed the service certificate on the general ground of service for over three years he would have got that certificate granted to him. Do you remember that interview when Captain Allman put it to you that if Captain Jones had claimed the service certificate without giving the items of service he would have passed the application ?—I have no doubt he suggested it, but I have no recollection of it. 243. You remember that he pointed out to you that the records of sea-service prior to 1887 had been burned in the Post Office fire, and therefore that any claim could not be corrected ? ■ —It is the first I have heard with regard to the records being burned. 244. You cannot charge your recollection with Captain Allman's statement that if Captain Jones had claimed generally without going into any detailed service, his certificate would have been granted?—l think there must be some mistake there. 245. Do you recollect that at the first interview he said Captain Jones could not pass the service certificate ? —That is so. 246. And he had finally vetoed it ? —Yes. 247. The next interview, according to Captain Allman's recollection, is the interview when you produced to him the Premier's telegram?— Yes. 248. Were you aware at that interview that Captain Allman had told the Premier that he could not pass Captain Jones's claim for a service certificate ? —No. These interviews with the Premier were new to me. 249. Were you not aware that Captain Allman spoke to the Premier about the matter ? —No. 250. Were you not aware that the Premier had been told by Captain Allman on an envelope that nothing could be done for Captain Jones because he had not sufficient service ? —I only heard of that envelope recently. 251. Captain Allman having vetoed the application, when you showed him the Premier's telegram he was led to suppose that there was some other method of giving Jones his certificate, and having twice vetoed it did he not infer that the Premier's telegram referred to the service certificate, but to something else ? Do you recollect whether that had been put to you so that some other method might be found?— No. Our conversation after I handed in the telegram was wholly in connection with the service certificate, and the whole matter was put on one side. 252. I am referring to the first interview after Captain Allman vetoed the application, and said it could not be granted?— Yes. 253. It came up quite fresh when you received the telegram from the Premier ?—Yes. 254. I understand it is admitted by both you and Captain Allman that tug-service was a possible way out of the difficulty ?—Yes. 255. Do you recollect that Captain Allman pointed out to you that Captain Jones had already a river-service certificate ?—I believe I do. 256. Do you recollect that Captain Allman pointed out to you that, in order to get that riverservice certificate, Captain Jones must have passed an examination in reading, writing, and arithmetic, so that you would assume that some kind of qualification would have been necessary ?— Yes; I said he had a river certificate. 257. And that carried with it the proof that he had passed in reading, writing, and arithmetic ?—I do not know that there is any service required for a river certificate. 258. This was an examination certificate ? —Quite so. 259. It is an admitted fact that Captain Jones had passed a certain examination which required a certain amount of competency in reading, writing, and arithmetic. That was put to you when Captain Allman urged upon you that Captain Jones should be permitted to sit for examination ? —lt was mentioned that he had a river certificate. 260. Do you recollect an interview following your showing him the telegram when the tugservice question was discussed further?—l remember the tug-service being discussed. 261. Do you recollect Allman pointing out to you that Eegulation 26 of 1895 —the tug-service in partly smooth and partly rough waters —was sufficient to justify a man getting a certificate ?— The question of the tug-service was referred to. 262. Do you recollect Captain Allman calling your attention to that, and pointing out that Captain Jones had been outside the Heads as master in charge of a tug-boat, and that under this Bule 26 he had sufficient service to entitle him to sit for a master's examination?— The tug-service was mentioned, and the fact of Captain Jones having gone outside as master ; but Captain Allman was to look into the regulation. 263. Did he not say after that, " I have looked at the regulation, and, in my opinion, the service he has performed on a tug-boat as master entitles him to sit for examination as master? —Not at the interview at which Captain Jones was present, when the examination was first suggested. lam not aware of any interview or any conversation on this question you are referring to in connection with Captain Jones's examination after the interview at which Captain Jones and Captain Allman were present together. 264. So far, Captain Allman agrees with you; but does it not suggest itself that there was another interview at which that was discussed ? Did he not inform you that Captain Jones could only sit .if there was this dispensation of a mate's certificate ?—There was only one occasion when Captain Jones was present. Then it was suggested about the examination. It was never suggested before.